Quote from: Festus on November 19, 2024, 05:08:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2024, 08:13:25 AMAnyway, going back to my original point, there aren't actually any universal games for other genres like D&D tries to be universal pseudo-medieval fantasy. Using the same system isn't the same thing. D&D has a set of core rules and then setting books which refer to those rules. Aside from GURPS, I don't recall any other surviving games do that. There's definitely no universal scifi rpg now like Alternity back in 1998.

Savage Worlds - about 25 settings currently
ICRPG - the Master Edition includes 5 settings

What genre are those?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTalesThere's definitely no universal scifi rpg now like Alternity back in 1998.

Traveller?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 19, 2024, 07:18:58 PM

Quote from: Festus on November 19, 2024, 05:08:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2024, 08:13:25 AMAnyway, going back to my original point, there aren't actually any universal games for other genres like D&D tries to be universal pseudo-medieval fantasy. Using the same system isn't the same thing. D&D has a set of core rules and then setting books which refer to those rules. Aside from GURPS, I don't recall any other surviving games do that. There's definitely no universal scifi rpg now like Alternity back in 1998.

Savage Worlds - about 25 settings currently
ICRPG - the Master Edition includes 5 settings

What genre are those?

Literally everything from various flavors of sci-fi, Wild West, urban fantasy, superheroes, fantasy, etc.

It's not my favorite because I feel the system relies too much on metacurrency being handed out like candy to capture the feel of certain genres (or a GM who really knows the odds of the system math and when NOT to require a roll), but a GM who isn't stingy with the Bennies or really understands those odds can make the system sing.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 20, 2024, 06:44:22 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 19, 2024, 07:18:58 PM

Quote from: Festus on November 19, 2024, 05:08:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2024, 08:13:25 AMAnyway, going back to my original point, there aren't actually any universal games for other genres like D&D tries to be universal pseudo-medieval fantasy. Using the same system isn't the same thing. D&D has a set of core rules and then setting books which refer to those rules. Aside from GURPS, I don't recall any other surviving games do that. There's definitely no universal scifi rpg now like Alternity back in 1998.

Savage Worlds - about 25 settings currently
ICRPG - the Master Edition includes 5 settings

What genre are those?

Literally everything from various flavors of sci-fi, Wild West, urban fantasy, superheroes, fantasy, etc.

It's not my favorite because I feel the system relies too much on metacurrency being handed out like candy to capture the feel of certain genres (or a GM who really knows the odds of the system math and when NOT to require a roll), but a GM who isn't stingy with the Bennies or really understands those odds can make the system sing.

So it's another universal system like GURPS or Risus?

I definitely think that's useful criticism. Thank you.

I was asking about systems that are slightly less universal, that emulate specific genres. Not all genres, just one or a handful of related genres.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 20, 2024, 06:44:22 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 19, 2024, 07:18:58 PM

Quote from: Festus on November 19, 2024, 05:08:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2024, 08:13:25 AMAnyway, going back to my original point, there aren't actually any universal games for other genres like D&D tries to be universal pseudo-medieval fantasy. Using the same system isn't the same thing. D&D has a set of core rules and then setting books which refer to those rules. Aside from GURPS, I don't recall any other surviving games do that. There's definitely no universal scifi rpg now like Alternity back in 1998.

Savage Worlds - about 25 settings currently
ICRPG - the Master Edition includes 5 settings

What genre are those?

Literally everything from various flavors of sci-fi, Wild West, urban fantasy, superheroes, fantasy, etc.

It's not my favorite because I feel the system relies too much on metacurrency being handed out like candy to capture the feel of certain genres (or a GM who really knows the odds of the system math and when NOT to require a roll), but a GM who isn't stingy with the Bennies or really understands those odds can make the system sing.

There are a *lot* more than 25 settings for Savage Worlds. https://savagepedia.miraheze.org/wiki/List_of_Savage_Worlds_Settings

That said, Chris does have a point. The meta-currency of Bennies is probably the biggest hurdle for GM's to get right. My contention is that once you figure out how to manage the Benny-economy, the game really flies.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 20, 2024, 10:04:08 AMSo it's another universal system like GURPS or Risus?

I definitely think that's useful criticism. Thank you.

I was asking about systems that are slightly less universal, that emulate specific genres. Not all genres, just one or a handful of related genres.

The settings in Savage Worlds modify the core rules to emulate the specific "needs" of the setting. This is a feature not a problem. It's because of this function that Savage Worlds scales in power from "normies doing stuff" to Supers all on the same chassis without shifting gears.

Speaking of Savage Worlds, without dwelling on Savage Worlds...

One thing Savage Worlds does is Plot Point Campaigns. Which are self-contained adventures that give as much legroom as needed for the PC's to go "off-roading".

There is a set goal to the adventure, much like in any AP, but it's more loosey-goosey than any AP. Ironically, I find it a good way to expand a small sandbox into much larger affair if the PC's are nudged properly.

You could literally start with an "adventure premise" and build a whole world (slowly) with this method. I've wondered about taking this concept and using some OSR ideas (random tables etc.) to just play with no set starting setting, but letting the setting become more emergent over the course of play. Not sure how it would play out, but it would be interesting to try.

Obviously you could do this with any system.

The settings I liked from the AD&D second edition era were.: Spelljammer, Forgotten Realms, and Dark Sun.

Forgotten Realms I felt comfortable at the time with because it truly was a world of adventure where the PCs could do their own thing and not trip over a heavy handed Metaplot. You could ignore everything else if you had the base set and the Forgotten Realms Adventures book and still have fun with it.

I didn't follow the Realms in 3rd edition. Because I was looking at more interesting things that were produced by third parties. Which I still have in my collection.

Quote from: Aglondir on November 19, 2024, 08:25:35 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTalesThere's definitely no universal scifi rpg now like Alternity back in 1998.

Traveller?

Traveller is really good, but mainly for science fiction that is grounded in science. Traveller doesn't do science fantasy (Star Trek, Star Wars, giant robot anime, etc) very well.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 20, 2024, 04:44:49 PMThe settings I liked from the AD&D second edition era were.: Spelljammer, Forgotten Realms, and Dark Sun.

Forgotten Realms I felt comfortable at the time with because it truly was a world of adventure where the PCs could do their own thing and not trip over a heavy handed Metaplot. You could ignore everything else if you had the base set and the Forgotten Realms Adventures book and still have fun with it.

I didn't follow the Realms in 3rd edition. Because I was looking at more interesting things that were produced by third parties. Which I still have in my collection.

Your taste in D&D settings is impeccable.

I'd addendum the following:

1) Greybox Realms and the subsequent regional gazetteers which spanned into 2e were peak Realms (and I'd argue kitchen-sink design). They were wide open enough to feed any GM of any skill-level forever. I'm *still* running Forgotten Realms and i don't even run D&D. I pretty much ignore all metaplot in my Realms games. I also roll Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim into this as they're very much part of the Realms for my games.

2) Spelljammer only magnifies #1. It is by design to include anything you could imagine into whatever D&D game you're running. AND it was completely unique. I'd also add the ship combat was awesome. I'm trying to make my own Savage Realms version of it.

3) Darksun - again completely original and you simply can't find *anything* this cool in D&D anymore. I prefer the original boxset before all the lore took things beyond the original map. But it was wide open enough for a GM to really get their own spin on things and go hogwild.

The takeaway is are such expansive settings possible today with equal levels of support?

Quote from: tenbones on November 20, 2024, 07:41:06 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 20, 2024, 04:44:49 PMThe settings I liked from the AD&D second edition era were.: Spelljammer, Forgotten Realms, and Dark Sun.

Forgotten Realms I felt comfortable at the time with because it truly was a world of adventure where the PCs could do their own thing and not trip over a heavy handed Metaplot. You could ignore everything else if you had the base set and the Forgotten Realms Adventures book and still have fun with it.

I didn't follow the Realms in 3rd edition. Because I was looking at more interesting things that were produced by third parties. Which I still have in my collection.

Your taste in D&D settings is impeccable.

I'd addendum the following:

1) Greybox Realms and the subsequent regional gazetteers which spanned into 2e were peak Realms (and I'd argue kitchen-sink design). They were wide open enough to feed any GM of any skill-level forever. I'm *still* running Forgotten Realms and i don't even run D&D. I pretty much ignore all metaplot in my Realms games. I also roll Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim into this as they're very much part of the Realms for my games.

2) Spelljammer only magnifies #1. It is by design to include anything you could imagine into whatever D&D game you're running. AND it was completely unique. I'd also add the ship combat was awesome. I'm trying to make my own Savage Realms version of it.

3) Darksun - again completely original and you simply can't find *anything* this cool in D&D anymore. I prefer the original boxset before all the lore took things beyond the original map. But it was wide open enough for a GM to really get their own spin on things and go hogwild.

The takeaway is are such expansive settings possible today with equal levels of support?

Supported to the extent the early Realms and Spelljammer were back in the day? I'd say probably not. But that's less to do about interest and skill and more about the fact that there are more GMs with experience who like to homebrew now. The industry is also, I'd argue, less centralized. There are lots of small publishers making their own settings and systems which means less need for a broad, kitchen sink approach so it is less likely a singular system will grow in the same way as the Realms.

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 20, 2024, 05:03:34 PMTraveller is really good, but mainly for science fiction that is grounded in science. Traveller doesn't do science fantasy (Star Trek, Star Wars, giant robot anime, etc) very well.

No, Traveller is just science fantasy with thin veneer of hard science. Once you have FTL drives, reactionless drives, artificial gravity, Psi powers, etc., you are leaving the realm of hard sci-fi far, far behind. Star Wars is super easy to do with Traveller it's almost all the way there. Psi powers are now the Force. You might need to add a few powers, but don't worry about balancing them as most Psi powers aren't. Add in lightsabers a 3d6 or 4d6 melee weapon where non-Psi I mean non-Force users have say a -4 to use them and you're done.

Quote from: zend0g on November 20, 2024, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 20, 2024, 05:03:34 PMTraveller is really good, but mainly for science fiction that is grounded in science. Traveller doesn't do science fantasy (Star Trek, Star Wars, giant robot anime, etc) very well.

No, Traveller is just science fantasy with thin veneer of hard science. Once you have FTL drives, reactionless drives, artificial gravity, Psi powers, etc., you are leaving the realm of hard sci-fi far, far behind. Star Wars is super easy to do with Traveller it's almost all the way there. Psi powers are now the Force. You might need to add a few powers, but don't worry about balancing them as most Psi powers aren't. Add in lightsabers a 3d6 or 4d6 melee weapon where non-Psi I mean non-Force users have say a -4 to use them and you're done.

I keep hearing this from people and I keep wondering if they have actually played the game. I never have seen or read of ships accelerating to midpoint, flipping ass over teakettle, and then decelerating in Star Wars. The psionics in Traveller are only superficially like what you see in Star Wars. Traveller, when played RAW feels more like the Expanse and Babylon 5 and the CoDominion stories of Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle than Star Wars.

Quote from: zend0g on November 20, 2024, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 20, 2024, 05:03:34 PMTraveller is really good, but mainly for science fiction that is grounded in science. Traveller doesn't do science fantasy (Star Trek, Star Wars, giant robot anime, etc) very well.

No, Traveller is just science fantasy with thin veneer of hard science. Once you have FTL drives, reactionless drives, artificial gravity, Psi powers, etc., you are leaving the realm of hard sci-fi far, far behind. Star Wars is super easy to do with Traveller it's almost all the way there. Psi powers are now the Force. You might need to add a few powers, but don't worry about balancing them as most Psi powers aren't. Add in lightsabers a 3d6 or 4d6 melee weapon where non-Psi I mean non-Force users have say a -4 to use them and you're done.

Folks have varying ideas of what is hard vs soft SF.  It's very subjective.  If we went with truly hard SF using only the things we have proven will work then we get a story set on Earth in our current reality.  If things we think are probably true are included, there are more possibilities.  If we just exclude things that we know are impossible, we get still more.  And this ignores the fact that in every era of history the leading experts were sure of some facts that we now know are wrong.  There's no reason to assume that our current age is any different.

In general, if an SF story has a limited number of things we now think are impossible and handles the consequences reasonably, I feel like it's hard SF.  The CoDominium books are a good example:  the only thing that doesn't agree with current science is FTL.  For Traveller, the only thing that's not hard SF is psionics, so I would count it as hard-ish at least.  You may feel differently, but as I said, it's subjective.  It's not really something that can be argued.

Another thing. I prefer my setting to have a baseline year like Harn's 720 (I think it was 720 at least). Every adventure assumes that time and the GM can adjust per their adventures. I don't particularly like the way WotC's adventure paths mention other adventure paths as 'history' the way the Storm King's Thunder references some dragon adventure path I don't have to justify some of the factions positions regarding Giants.