Hello,

New to the forum. Trying to find advice/reviews and such from non-slop internet sources. Glad this site exists! Anyways...

As the title suggests, anyone have experience with Sword of Cepheus (1e or 2e)? I'm thinking of doing a renaissance with fantasy game in a setting of my own creation. I have the Zozer firearms and low-tech weapon supplements for Cepheus Engine, I figured I could just port that over and use Sword of Cepheus as a base for the main rules.

Alternatively, I was thinking perhaps Worlds Without Number might work? I just don't love (but will totally accept if that's what it takes) classes and levels. I like Traveller/BRP because of the classless systems they use. I can't quite put my finger on it exactly, but after running BX and OSR clones I have gotten a little past the classes. Usually there is some sort of class bloat that comes with that. However, the advantage of OSR stuff (WWN) is compatibility with a lot of great material and bestiaries, guides, and endless advice blogs.

Thanks for any thoughts and feedback!

As an opening disclaimer, I have played neither system, but have read both. I've played limited amounts of both Traveller and Stars Without Number, for what that's worth.

They're both fine games, so I think it's a question of the setting you want to run, and how much homebrewing you're prepared to do to make the game fit it. I read your comment as wanting to run a renaissance setting. I love the renaissance and early modern periods for roleplaying, so I'm invested in that question.

Sword of Cepheus is one that's been orbiting around my usual gaming group for a while, but no one's gotten around to running it yet. My personal biggest reservation with it is in the way the lifepath system tailors it for a Conan-esque sword-and-sorcery or early-to-high medieval setting. (For example, what is the "shaman" career representing in a Renaissance setting?). It depends on how particular you are, but I'd have to re-write several professions and events in the lifepath to make it work for any setting I'd use it for.

With Worlds Without Number, I'd say you might have a similar issue. The classes are less setting-specific (and FWIW, WWN has one of the most flexible class systems in any OSR game), but the spells take on a very Vancian Science-Fantasy flavor, which might not fit with the game world you want to run. Of course the cross compatibility is a point in favor of any OSR game, but personally I find that converting OSR stuff to other systems isn't all that difficult.

Not sure if you're interested in alternative recommendations, but I'll give a couple:

Warlock!: A retro RPG supposedly meant to be a kind of hybrid of Fighting Fantasy and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying. It's a nice rules-light system if you like that. Uses a kind of semi-class system, with PCs expected to pass through several professions during their career (much like WFRP), but the professions will fit a renaissance milieu a bit better than the Sword of Cepheus ones do IMO. The magic system is also very generic, so it should be easy to adapt to most settings. You'd still have to homebrew in firearms, though.

Savage Worlds: Basically gets recommended on any "what system should I use?" thread, but not without reason. It's a classless universal roleplaying system, with some good modding tools for customizing it to setting. If you're intending to run a more grounded/historical renaissance milieu, the "Savage World of Solomon Kane" book is set up for a late 16th century setting, and comes with the Savage Worlds core rules included.

Mythras: I don't know this game well at all, but if you like BRP, Mythras might be the way to go, since it's a version of that. Again, not really designed for a more historical Renaissance game, but if you're doing something closer to a renaissance D&D setting, Mythras Classic Fantasy might do the job. There was a BRP game called Clockwork and Chivalry, which was for an alternate history English Civil War period, but AFAIK its long out of print.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 03:37:40 PMI love the renaissance and early modern periods for roleplaying, so I'm invested in that question.

Renaissance chads RISE UP!

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 03:37:40 PMSword of Cepheus is one that's been orbiting around my usual gaming group for a while, but no one's gotten around to running it yet. My personal biggest reservation with it is in the way the lifepath system tailors it for a Conan-esque sword-and-sorcery or early-to-high medieval setting. (For example, what is the "shaman" career representing in a Renaissance setting?). It depends on how particular you are, but I'd have to re-write several professions and events in the lifepath to make it work for any setting I'd use it for.

The biggest benefit I can see is the ease of mechanics (2d6 +- modifier is super easy), and the amount of homebrew rules that are available, as well as Stellagama and Zozer (and et al.) publishers publishing things actively to the system.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 03:37:40 PMWith Worlds Without Number, I'd say you might have a similar issue. The classes are less setting-specific (and FWIW, WWN has one of the most flexible class systems in any OSR game), but the spells take on a very Vancian Science-Fantasy flavor, which might not fit with the game world you want to run. Of course the cross compatibility is a point in favor of any OSR game, but personally I find that converting OSR stuff to other systems isn't all that difficult.

I'm okay homebrewing, I don't really care too much about Vancian stuff but I also don't dislike it. And yes the ease of compatibility and conversion is why WWN is tempting to use.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 03:37:40 PMNot sure if you're interested in alternative recommendations, but I'll give a couple:

I am always open! Thanks for thinking about the question.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 03:37:40 PMWarlock!: A retro RPG supposedly meant to be a kind of hybrid of Fighting Fantasy and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying. It's a nice rules-light system if you like that.

Indeed I do, I'll check it out, thanks!

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 03:37:40 PMSavage Worlds

Does SW use different dice? If I remember correctly there was something about assigning dice to attributes/skills. I'm not a huge fan of moving between different dice in a game (because of my table's preferences, I don't care much but they don't like it). Otherwise I'll check out the Solomon Kane setting! I love Solomon Kane!

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 03:37:40 PMThere was a BRP game called Clockwork and Chivalry, which was for an alternate history English Civil War period, but AFAIK its long out of print.

Yes I own Clockwork and Chivalry and Renaissance Deluxe, they're great but I think I'll use them as reference materials rather than rules. I love their poison system and alchemy/witchcraft magic systems, but I'm not thrilled about all the skills that are in OpenQuest/BRP. Mythras doesn't interest me because of that, but I appreciate the recommendation.

Usual disclaimers in that I haven't actually played it but SoC seemed like an intriguing yet odd mix of design asthetics/goals in that it has elements of rules light to minimalist games meshed in between more crunchy 90s/early 00s ones.  Personally, I think I prefer one that is firmly in one camp or the other but that's just a preference and NOT a judgement on quality.   I am curious how the use of education as a stat works in practice in combination with the relatively crunchy skill system.

@RNGm

If I may ask, what pieces of the system are crunchy and which are minimalist? I'm not sure I understand the difference and I have limited experience so I'm not sure what rules resembles what philosophy.

I ran a somewhat long campaign with Sword of Cepheus (1st edition) and loved it.  If you're already used to playing/running Traveller then you'll have no issue.  It's more suited to a more grounded Sword and Sorcery game than high fantasy. 

There's not a lot of material for it; no published adventures.  I didn't find it difficult to convert other material to use with SoC though and I reskinned and repurposed a lot of stuff from Traveller and Cepheus Engine.  There's another rules set called Westlands that's almost identical and it does have a some short adventures that you will need no conversion to use.

If you're looking to use a Traveller rules set to run a fantasy game with, you should also look at 1520: HRE 2d6 Adventure in the Holy Roman Empire.  It's a historical RPG set in the late Medieval period.

Quote from: webwarrior1.0 on November 19, 2024, 05:16:31 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 03:37:40 PMI love the renaissance and early modern periods for roleplaying, so I'm invested in that question.

Renaissance chads RISE UP!

Indeed! We need more rapiers and muskets roleplaying in the world.

Let me give some follow up details/examples on my previous post:

Quote from: webwarrior1.0 on November 19, 2024, 05:16:31 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 03:37:40 PMWith Worlds Without Number, I'd say you might have a similar issue. The classes are less setting-specific (and FWIW, WWN has one of the most flexible class systems in any OSR game), but the spells take on a very Vancian Science-Fantasy flavor, which might not fit with the game world you want to run. Of course the cross compatibility is a point in favor of any OSR game, but personally I find that converting OSR stuff to other systems isn't all that difficult.

I'm okay homebrewing, I don't really care too much about Vancian stuff but I also don't dislike it. And yes the ease of compatibility and conversion is why WWN is tempting to use.

For reference, here's a sample spell from WWN:

Quote from: webwarrior1.0 on November 19, 2024, 05:16:31 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 03:37:40 PMWarlock!: A retro RPG supposedly meant to be a kind of hybrid of Fighting Fantasy and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying. It's a nice rules-light system if you like that.

Indeed I do, I'll check it out, thanks!

Warlock! uses a D20+skill modifier for pretty much everything (there are no attributes). As an example, here's one of the careers. The numbers given next to the skill are the max rank in it you can get while training in that career:


And here's a sample spell entry:



Outside of the lack of attributes and the profession system, the most unique thing about it is probably the way melee combat plays out. When you attack, both parties roll their relevant melee skill (the attacker rolls with +5), and then whoever loses the roll gets hit. So you can't attack someone without risking catching a shot in return. It also has Stamina instead of HP, with serious wounds being incurred when your stamina runs out. If you want to buy it, the "Traitor's Edition" Corebook is the one on DTRPG at the moment, and is a complete game. Everything else is extra.

Quote from: webwarrior1.0 on November 19, 2024, 05:16:31 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 03:37:40 PMSavage Worlds

Does SW use different dice? If I remember correctly there was something about assigning dice to attributes/skills. I'm not a huge fan of moving between different dice in a game (because of my table's preferences, I don't care much but they don't like it). Otherwise I'll check out the Solomon Kane setting! I love Solomon Kane!

Yeah it's a "dice-ladder" system, so if you improve your Athletics skill, your might be raising it from D8 to D10. The other unique feature of the system is that most dice "explode", so rolls can swing wildly. If you're interested in it, there's a poster around here called "tenbones" who is our resident expert on the system.

Regarding the Solomon Kane book, the one I can vouch for is this one: https://www.amazon.com/Savage-World-Solomon-Worlds-S2P10400/dp/0979245583

There's a new edition being kickstarted at the moment, but I don't know much about it.

If you like the Solomon Kane stories, I'd recommend the Savage Worlds book even if you don't run it, just as a sourcebook and collectible. It's got lots of nice information on the time period, summaries of the original stories, some unique spells, adventure seeds and so forth.

Quote from: BadApple on November 19, 2024, 08:35:18 PMI ran a somewhat long campaign with Sword of Cepheus (1st edition) and loved it.

Very good to know thanks! And yes the lack of extra materials right now is too bad but I'm not sure if I'd even use any adventure as written. I loot ideas from adventures, but you can do that regardless of the system.

Quote from: BadApple on November 19, 2024, 08:35:18 PMIf you're looking to use a Traveller rules set to run a fantasy game with, you should also look at 1520: HRE 2d6 Adventure in the Holy Roman Empire.  It's a historical RPG set in the late Medieval period.

Awesome will check it out! I don't necessarily want a replica setting but that will be great for ideas and such.

Edit: Just read the sample from DTRPG and watched a bit of the review from the author and wow, this is now in the running for my next rules!

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 08:37:18 PMFor reference, here's a sample spell from WWN:

I did not realize WWN leaned so heavily into that flavor Science Fantasy. I don't mind it but that is good to keep note of. Thanks.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 08:37:18 PMOutside of the lack of attributes and the profession system, the most unique thing about it is probably the way melee combat plays out. When you attack, both parties roll their relevant melee skill (the attacker rolls with +5), and then whoever loses the roll gets hit. So you can't attack someone without risking catching a shot in return. It also has Stamina instead of HP, with serious wounds being incurred when your stamina runs out. If you want to buy it, the "Traitor's Edition" Corebook is the one on DTRPG at the moment, and is a complete game. Everything else is extra.

Honestly the lack of attributes is pretty alluring---I've often wondered why STR et al. even matters---and the combat sounds fun. I always like deadly combat or combat that has serious weight. Warlock! sounds like it has it. I guess I'm split between Warlock! and 2D6 stuff.

Savage World's sounds nice but I don't think the dice ladder system will be smiled at on my table. Thanks for taking the time to explain it all to me.

Quote from: webwarrior1.0 on November 19, 2024, 08:22:45 PM@RNGm

If I may ask, what pieces of the system are crunchy and which are minimalist? I'm not sure I understand the difference and I have limited experience so I'm not sure what rules resembles what philosophy.

Typically, the 2d6 core resolution mechanic (or even 1d6 in other games) is seen in rules light to minimalist games like Barbarians of Lemuria, EZD6, and Tiny Dungeon if my memory serves me correctly and is what initially interested me enough to look at the game.   What turned me off was IIRC the skill system having 25+ skills all individually tracked with skill ranks that you gain at multiple parts of character generation and with character advancement.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that method (I loved it in D&D3/3.5 back in the day) but it just seemed odd to me to mix it with a more typically rules light core mechanic.  Again, there is nothing wrong with it per se and it's just a preference on my part to embrace one or the other.

Quote from: RNGm on November 19, 2024, 09:32:54 PMTypically, the 2d6 core resolution mechanic (or even 1d6 in other games) is seen in rules light to minimalist games like Barbarians of Lemuria, EZD6, and Tiny Dungeon if my memory serves me correctly and is what initially interested me enough to look at the game.  What turned me off was IIRC the skill system having 25+ skills all individually tracked with skill ranks that you gain at multiple parts of character generation and with character advancement.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that method (I loved it in D&D3/3.5 back in the day) but it just seemed odd to me to mix it with a more typically rules light core mechanic.  Again, there is nothing wrong with it per se and it's just a preference on my part to embrace one or the other.

Thanks for explaining it, that makes more sense now. I appreciate the explanation.

I support using Sword of Cepheus because I think it better emulates a Renaissance environment for adventure.

I do have one suggestion if you do, in melee combat like a swordfight with rapiers - instead of a roll to hit, have the combatants make opposed skill rolls to better represent the ability to parry a similar weapon. If the weapons are dissimilar, use a negative 1 or 2 modifier for the smaller weapon to parry the larger. If there are multiple combatants on a single defender, use a cumulative negative 2 modifier for each combatant for the defender.

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 19, 2024, 09:45:48 PMI support using Sword of Cepheus because I think it better emulates a Renaissance environment for adventure.

I do have one suggestion if you do, in melee combat like a swordfight with rapiers - instead of a roll to hit, have the combatants make opposed skill rolls to better represent the ability to parry a similar weapon. If the weapons are dissimilar, use a negative 1 or 2 modifier for the smaller weapon to parry the larger. If there are multiple combatants on a single defender, use a cumulative negative 2 modifier for each combatant for the defender.

Any thoughts on Honor + Intrigue?

RNGM's Comment reminded me, there's another game from  Stellagama called "Barbaric!", which is supposed to be kind of a rules-lighter equivalent to Sword of Cepheus. I've never had a chance to look through it, though.

I hadn't heard of Honor and Intrigue. Looks interesting. There's also "All for One: Regime Diabolique". I didn't mention it earlier since its pretty devoted to its own setting, and the Three Musketeers/30 years war period is firmly out of the Renaissance, but that's the Ubiquity system, which looks pretty simple from what I've seen of it.

I'm open to change up the system/setting. Again, since my setting is homebrew it's flexible. I've never heard of Ubiquity but the more I read and review stuff for Cepheus the more I like it. Simple, skill lists aren't overwhelming like BRP, and seems good.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 19, 2024, 09:59:27 PMRNGM's Comment reminded me, there's another game from  Stellagama called "Barbaric!", which is supposed to be kind of a rules-lighter equivalent to Sword of Cepheus. I've never had a chance to look through it, though.

I have been running a solo game with the older version of Barbaric! and have really enjoyed it. Originally that's why I was turned on to Sword of Cepheus and saw that they recently published a second edition. 2e doesn't have many reviews but I imagine the differences are pretty minor and/or interchangeable.

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 19, 2024, 09:45:48 PMI support using Sword of Cepheus because I think it better emulates a Renaissance environment for adventure.

I do have one suggestion if you do, in melee combat like a swordfight with rapiers - instead of a roll to hit, have the combatants make opposed skill rolls to better represent the ability to parry a similar weapon. If the weapons are dissimilar, use a negative 1 or 2 modifier for the smaller weapon to parry the larger. If there are multiple combatants on a single defender, use a cumulative negative 2 modifier for each combatant for the defender.

Thanks for the ideas and for the help haha, I sometimes get analysis paralysis when looking over the MASSIVE amount of rules. Almost all of the rules have fans so it can be hard to parse opinions with what I would like or want from a system.

And yes the dueling system you described is a great idea. For monstrous combat, normal rules work, but between 2 nobles fighting for honor? Gotta have some duels going on!

And funny enough, the guy who made the 1520 rules also made a supplement, of the same name and I imagine almost identical in contents, for Renaissance Deluxe! I suppose Renaissance (setting/era) fans run in similar circles.

Also, I remembered LotFP, but again being OSR and also the art being WAY over the top for me, I would not want to run it. But it has it's merits and many fans.

Quote from: RNGm on November 19, 2024, 09:53:10 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 19, 2024, 09:45:48 PMI support using Sword of Cepheus because I think it better emulates a Renaissance environment for adventure.

I do have one suggestion if you do, in melee combat like a swordfight with rapiers - instead of a roll to hit, have the combatants make opposed skill rolls to better represent the ability to parry a similar weapon. If the weapons are dissimilar, use a negative 1 or 2 modifier for the smaller weapon to parry the larger. If there are multiple combatants on a single defender, use a cumulative negative 2 modifier for each combatant for the defender.

Any thoughts on Honor + Intrigue?

I haven't read or played it, so I don't know. I'm curious, though.