It seems odd to me the liberals of the 90s; which had a track record for pushing the boundaries and pissing off the Right-Wing moral busybodies of that decade- have more or less all become authoritarian Neoliberals, of the same stripe as the Neocons they pushed against 2 decades ago.

Steve Jackson seemingly embodying this odd inversion of morality overtime.

Not quite everyone. I was a 90s liberal, and like some others today I'm still standing (on the other side) for the defense of free speech, anti-war, anti-corporate control, and anti-establishment in general.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on November 10, 2024, 09:05:59 PMIt seems odd to me the liberals of the 90s; which had a track record for pushing the boundaries and pissing off the Right-Wing moral busybodies of that decade- have more or less all become authoritarian Neoliberals, of the same stripe as the Neocons they pushed against 2 decades ago.

I know, right?

Either die the hero or see yourself become the villain has never been truer.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on November 11, 2024, 05:45:04 PM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on November 10, 2024, 09:05:59 PMIt seems odd to me the liberals of the 90s; which had a track record for pushing the boundaries and pissing off the Right-Wing moral busybodies of that decade- have more or less all become authoritarian Neoliberals, of the same stripe as the Neocons they pushed against 2 decades ago.

I know, right?

Either die the hero or see yourself become the villain has never been truer.

And a generous helping of "Todays Social Justice is tomorrows Political Incorrectness."

SJG was a hypocrite company anyhow. So they get what they deserve eventually.

The danger is believing the aims justify the means, and that a simplistic one-axis political model is the only way to model political ethos.

Typically more mature current political graphing works on two-axis Cartesian plane -- closer to D&D alignment, no? -- with liberal-conservative X-axis and authoritarian/totalitarian-libertarian Y-axis. I could easily volunteer an individual-group Z-axis.

Point being is we probably wrestled with ethos graphing and moral questions upon our attributes in RPGs during the 70s through 90s than people bother with in real governance. Typically a lot of fear and simplistic thinking is applied to short-circuit critical thinking and emotionally modulated discourse.

Could The Mature Adult Talk we have to do to manage our RPGs at the table give us experience to talk about higher stakes issues? You'd be tempted to think so, but we are still human. And that's why I do not hold anything SJ politically says personally (mortals, feet of clay, et cetera). Nor do I pooh-pooh those who take grave offense. Such is life.

That said, his dickish past business behavior to paying creators helping him has tarnished my respect for him in my eyes. Disappointing things I haven't heard of before. I'd be personally worried about righting my past wrongs before castigating people who politically disagree with me.

Nolan chart is a fairly accurate 2-dimensional political affiliation test, that closely resembles D&D's 9-section morality chart.  The 9 areas are: Liberal, conservative, libertarian, statist, libertarian liberal, libertarian conservative, statist liberal, statist conservative, and centrist.
(Statist is sometimes substituted with populist or progressive)

https://polquiz.com

There is a British rip-off of the Nolan chart that is woefully inaccurate, and highly biased.  It places Barack Obama higher on the libertarian scale than Ronald Reagan!

Hmm, I'd not trust in any validity of something that conflates statist, populist, and progressive - they can all be very different from one another.

Ninefold alignment is like that, too, I suppose - "True Neutral" vs "Unaligned Neutral" being the biggest, and also one that deserves but is not resolved by the individual-group Z axis. Where else - "Benevolent" vs "Lawful Stupid" in paladin-land?

And to tangent halfway off of games again, the Deed of Paksenarrion is probably the best straight-out-of-D&D fiction I know, and is all about paladinhood. (I'm currently rereading all of Thieves' World, maybe that comes next as a palate cleanser?) What's the best feels-like-game-fiction of the last decade?

Populist is the term they were using to try to be non-subjective.  As for progressive and statist, they are pretty in agreement and either are better-suited as the lower quadrant (oppose individual liberty, oppose economic liberty.)

Quote from: THE_Leopold on November 04, 2024, 04:54:57 PMThe saying "Never meet your heroes" is so applicable to the case of Steve Jackson that it's a shame he is that unhinged in his ranting, raving, hatred toward Trump and nearly all of us customer base.

I have met him - at least two or three times at Gen Con, maybe once at ORIGINS. He was a Nice Guy. But that was years ago before the recent elections.
He autographed my GURPS books, so did Sean Punch one year.

Over the years I just had to get used to my 'Heroes' having the proverbial feet of clay or faults - like Gene Roddenberry. (He had some good ideas, but others contributed a lot).

 I will however continue to play and run GURPS 4/e when I can Sadly, the current campaign is eding abruptly and I am very sad about that.

- Ed C.

(Hey Pundit, I got back on her. Yay!)

Quote from: Koltar on November 16, 2024, 09:39:28 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on November 04, 2024, 04:54:57 PMThe saying "Never meet your heroes" is so applicable to the case of Steve Jackson that it's a shame he is that unhinged in his ranting, raving, hatred toward Trump and nearly all of us customer base.

I have met him - at least two or three times at Gen Con, maybe once at ORIGINS. He was a Nice Guy. But that was years ago before the recent elections.
He autographed my GURPS books, so did Sean Punch one year.

Over the years I just had to get used to my 'Heroes' having the proverbial feet of clay or faults - like Gene Roddenberry. (He had some good ideas, but others contributed a lot).

 I will however continue to play and run GURPS 4/e when I can Sadly, the current campaign is eding abruptly and I am very sad about that.

- Ed C.

(Hey Pundit, I got back on her. Yay!)

It's been 20+ years but he was friends with guy who owned the FLGS, and stopped in for a few hours after closing to just talk and hang out. Was a decent enough guy then.

But then again, 20+ years ago the teams weren't a deathsport and you could disagree about politics and still sling dice together without being a literal nazi.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 06, 2024, 02:58:09 PMI'm overjoyed at the thoughts of what Steve is feeling right now.

Send him a note and ask him how it feels to be on the wrong side of history.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 17, 2024, 12:18:14 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 06, 2024, 02:58:09 PMI'm overjoyed at the thoughts of what Steve is feeling right now.

Send him a note and ask him how it feels to be on the wrong side of history.

Naw - that seems cruel.....
Would have to take that as a Disadvantage ....
-Ed C.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on November 10, 2024, 09:05:59 PMIt seems odd to me the liberals of the 90s; which had a track record for pushing the boundaries and pissing off the Right-Wing moral busybodies of that decade- have more or less all become authoritarian Neoliberals, of the same stripe as the Neocons they pushed against 2 decades ago.

When you don't have values, you just have a side

I just read SJ rant, haven't seen your video yet.

It's quite typical for that crowd, to be honest.  They are so deep into their TDS that they can't see that every accusation they make against Trump is an admission of their own guilt.

Growing up, and as an adult, I loved TFT, Ogre, and later GURPS.  I think those works were (and are) brilliant.

But as a human being, Steve Jackson has become a sad old man, ranting at clouds at the sky.  He reminds me of my own Democratic/Liberal friends and family (oh, Thanksgiving is going to be so fun this year!) who are the least thoughtful--and ironically, the least charitable--people I know.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on November 10, 2024, 09:05:59 PMIt seems odd to me the liberals of the 90s; which had a track record for pushing the boundaries and pissing off the Right-Wing moral busybodies of that decade- have more or less all become authoritarian Neoliberals, of the same stripe as the Neocons they pushed against 2 decades ago.

Steve Jackson seemingly embodying this odd inversion of morality overtime.

Indeed.  Once the "outsiders" became the "establishment", it's inevitable that the commitment to the principals of free speech and speaking the truth to power were simply tactics, and not really a reflection of true ideals.  IN SJ's case, it's as if the whole Cyberpunk raid wasn't something he learned from, in terms of what was wrong with the system--rather, he decided that it would be good to *emulate* instead, and put people who would use those tools against those who *he* hated, rather than against him.