I love that games like Old School Essentials (B/X cleaned up) still go by the early line of thought that the GM/Referee/DM makes the final call or makes the decision if things aren't covered by the rules.

That is why I am glad I am slowly peace outing on 5e.  I am only running it because I have a great group of guys and they want to play it.  Once that is done I am selling my books and sticking to OSR games.

In terms of advising people on how to run a good game, the best book I've read is the Lamentations of the Flame Princess Referee Book, but that's out of print, so not a very useful recommendation.

The 1e DMG is certainly very thorough, and interesting as an insight on Gygax himself and his attitudes, but it seems like most of what's in it declines in usefulness if you aren't running AD&D.

Quote from: GhostNinja on November 13, 2024, 05:16:25 PMThat is why I am glad I am slowly peace outing on 5e.  I am only running it because I have a great group of guys and they want to play it.  Once that is done I am selling my books and sticking to OSR games.

I finished up my last 5e campaign a couple months ago after running it as my main game since early 2015. My son wants the books when he goes to college in September 2025, so that works out. Currently I'm playing in a couple 5e campaigns - two friends are running 5e, one Dragonbane, one had a go at Shadowdark. Shadowdark is my main game now though I definitely want to run Dragonbane again, and probably other games like Cyberpunk Red, maybe some Mini Six. I fancy having a go at a Mini Six super-hero sandbox.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 13, 2024, 06:42:57 PM...but it seems like most of what's in it declines in usefulness if you aren't running AD&D.

This is a problem with the user, not the product.  I've run all kinds of games (5e, OSR, Rolemaster, SotDL, et al.), and I've never found one that the 1e DMG doesn't speak to in some way, and make better...

Quote from: Abraxus on November 13, 2024, 05:07:21 PMlet's not kid ourselves at the poor organization and sometimes poor advice given to DMs either.

The organisation was terrible. But remember they didn't have modern writing software, they were literally cutting and pasting pieces of paper - and basically one guy wrote all those books, and not all in one go, so he'd sometimes slot something in that only occurred to him, or after feedback from people who'd read the previous book.

That said, it was written for a more patient time. Everything was longer and more roundabout then - just look at Lord of the Rings, for example. Concise it ain't.

But no, the DM advice was not poor. It was very good. And where it does seem poor, again you have to consider the context of the time. For example, his advice to crack down on annoying players by smashing their characters - well, he had 17 players there in his basement, with 17 players you don't have time to fuck around and talk to people about their feelings, anyone who's annoying needs to be slapped down, better to lose 1 annoying player than have 4 good players give up because of him. When you've just 4 players it's obviously different.

You were expected to read it and then use your common sense. That's also a different time to now. It's like judicial common law vs 9,000 pages of income tax legislation.

Quote from: Abraxus on November 13, 2024, 05:07:21 PM1E DMg had a huge wealth of information, coupled with some of the shittiest, piss poor organization ( even for rpg book of that time.

With the added bonus of Gygax who was very much in his micromanaging mindset of leaving information that need led to be both in the PHB and Monster Manual.

Thieves could build traps who knew because it was in the DMG. Not that I or players did because if you followed RAW you have to draw them. 🖕 Fuck you I ain't doing that.

Random Encounter tables nah DM don't need them in the Monster Manual where they belong. Let's give the DMs time to waste to look at two books.

I still routinely look at my 1E core set for nostalgia and entertainment. Buys let's not kid ourselves at the poor organization and sometimes poor advice given to DMs either.

The Basic D&D rulebook was a much better "Dungeon Master Guide". Well organized, clear explanations and without all the galumphing High Gygaxian Prose and confusing organization.

I definitely find the High Gygaxian inspiring. Moldvay & Mentzer Basic are both good books too, with a different goal.

As far as actual info the 2024 book falls flat. The 2014 one had some good advice and charts IIRC. This is like almost 2e levels of trash DMG.

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 14, 2024, 08:58:24 AMAs far as actual info the 2024 book falls flat. The 2014 one had some good advice and charts IIRC. This is like almost 2e levels of trash DMG.

I'm curious to hear any praise of the 2024 DMG, vs the 2014 book.  What, if anything; is better?

Quote from: Man at Arms on November 14, 2024, 04:21:31 PM

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 14, 2024, 08:58:24 AMAs far as actual info the 2024 book falls flat. The 2014 one had some good advice and charts IIRC. This is like almost 2e levels of trash DMG.

I'm curious to hear any praise of the 2024 DMG, vs the 2014 book.  What, if anything; is better?

I haven't yet read over much beyond the Greyhawk material. I'll get back to you when I have.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 13, 2024, 11:12:59 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on November 13, 2024, 05:07:21 PMlet's not kid ourselves at the poor organization and sometimes poor advice given to DMs either.

The organisation was terrible. But remember they didn't have modern writing software, they were literally cutting and pasting pieces of paper - and basically one guy wrote all those books, and not all in one go, so he'd sometimes slot something in that only occurred to him, or after feedback from people who'd read the previous book.

That said, it was written for a more patient time. Everything was longer and more roundabout then - just look at Lord of the Rings, for example. Concise it ain't.

But no, the DM advice was not poor. It was very good. And where it does seem poor, again you have to consider the context of the time. For example, his advice to crack down on annoying players by smashing their characters - well, he had 17 players there in his basement, with 17 players you don't have time to fuck around and talk to people about their feelings, anyone who's annoying needs to be slapped down, better to lose 1 annoying player than have 4 good players give up because of him. When you've just 4 players it's obviously different.

You were expected to read it and then use your common sense. That's also a different time to now. It's like judicial common law vs 9,000 pages of income tax legislation.

Actually the organization is not bad. It is just not organized in a way some prefer.

I've had the same problem with how white Wolf used to organize their books and you'd be nearly half way into the book before even getting to character creation and some rules are squirrled away in examples instead of as actual rule expanations. And they did this in about every core book,

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2024, 01:00:59 AM

Quote from: Man at Arms on November 14, 2024, 04:21:31 PM

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 14, 2024, 08:58:24 AMAs far as actual info the 2024 book falls flat. The 2014 one had some good advice and charts IIRC. This is like almost 2e levels of trash DMG.

I'm curious to hear any praise of the 2024 DMG, vs the 2014 book.  What, if anything; is better?

I haven't yet read over much beyond the Greyhawk material. I'll get back to you when I have.

There was a bunch of hype about getting a better DMG, this time around.  Perkins was going to make sure it was better.  They had 10 years of 5E, to look back upon.

Quote from: Man at Arms on November 15, 2024, 02:13:29 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2024, 01:00:59 AM

Quote from: Man at Arms on November 14, 2024, 04:21:31 PM

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 14, 2024, 08:58:24 AMAs far as actual info the 2024 book falls flat. The 2014 one had some good advice and charts IIRC. This is like almost 2e levels of trash DMG.

I'm curious to hear any praise of the 2024 DMG, vs the 2014 book.  What, if anything; is better?

I haven't yet read over much beyond the Greyhawk material. I'll get back to you when I have.

There was a bunch of hype about getting a better DMG, this time around.  Perkins was going to make sure it was better.  They had 10 years of 5E, to look back upon.

Cool. When I get around to reading it, I'll see what measures up, but I've got a novel and two other RPG books lined up first.

Quote from: Man at Arms on November 15, 2024, 02:13:29 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2024, 01:00:59 AM

Quote from: Man at Arms on November 14, 2024, 04:21:31 PM

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 14, 2024, 08:58:24 AMAs far as actual info the 2024 book falls flat. The 2014 one had some good advice and charts IIRC. This is like almost 2e levels of trash DMG.

I'm curious to hear any praise of the 2024 DMG, vs the 2014 book.  What, if anything; is better?

I haven't yet read over much beyond the Greyhawk material. I'll get back to you when I have.

There was a bunch of hype about getting a better DMG, this time around.  Perkins was going to make sure it was better.  They had 10 years of 5E, to look back upon.

Perkins is too busy being woke and pissing on that 10 years and the origins, on top of lying through his teeth to contribute anything sane to fake 5e DMG. "The DM is there to serve the people!" "This is still 5e!"

Quote from: Omega on November 16, 2024, 09:31:56 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on November 15, 2024, 02:13:29 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2024, 01:00:59 AM

Quote from: Man at Arms on November 14, 2024, 04:21:31 PM

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 14, 2024, 08:58:24 AMAs far as actual info the 2024 book falls flat. The 2014 one had some good advice and charts IIRC. This is like almost 2e levels of trash DMG.

I'm curious to hear any praise of the 2024 DMG, vs the 2014 book.  What, if anything; is better?

I haven't yet read over much beyond the Greyhawk material. I'll get back to you when I have.

There was a bunch of hype about getting a better DMG, this time around.  Perkins was going to make sure it was better.  They had 10 years of 5E, to look back upon.

Perkins is too busy being woke and pissing on that 10 years and the origins, on top of lying through his teeth to contribute anything sane to fake 5e DMG. "The DM is there to serve the people!" "This is still 5e!"

So, you've read the book?