First of all, yes, I still play D&D 5e. RPG's are hard to come by as they are, over here, and I'm a sucker for books, so there.

So, I've bought the 2024 DMG. Everybody and their mother is sniffing its farts (regardless, I would have bought it anyway because I did like 2014). The 2014 couldn't do anything good in the genpop's eyes, apparently (even though I did think it was the best of the core rulebooks). But anyway, the 2024 DMG.
What don't I like about it?

- There was criticism on the 2014 guide for being too "in medias res", that it chucked you in without telling you what's what. I think that is not the case. But now 2024 speaks to you as if you're "special" (if you catch my drift). I get it, people must learn, and all, but it seems to be made for new DMs, I as a DM of several years don't get much out of it (contrary to what I believed I would).

- 2014 DMG had a fantastic way of building your own dungeon. It's gone.

- 2014 DMG had rules for lasting injuries and massive damage. They're gone.

- 2024 DMG assumes that you as a DM don't get into their Bastions. It's my game, I pretty damn well will go wherever I want to go.

- 2024 DMG seems to take power away from the DM. Used to be as a DM you were, essentially, the judge and boss of the game. But now they have tables and sheets and lists for everything: safety tools, hard and soft limits, even discussing the lethality of your campaign. It's simple. If he dies, he dies.

Generally I think this new DMG shoehorns the Dungeon Master in a subordinate position vs. the players. For those of you who may also already have flicked through it, is it me or do you have the same feeling?

- Edit: I'm too young (as a D&D player in a country that only has it for like ten or so years in big numbers) to have any Greyhawk material (I of course have heard of D&D since the early nineties), and the only thing I can think of is that Greyhawk is too much stripped down to be of any use.

Look up the 1978 version. Everything after that was a mistake.

Well if you bought the 2014 DMG, and you enjoyed it; that's great, and it doesn't matter what other people think.  Enjoy the thing that makes you happy.

The 2024 DMG sounds more and more, like a hard no.


I already have enough DMGs.

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on November 13, 2024, 02:55:34 AMFirst of all, yes, I still play D&D 5e. RPG's are hard to come by as they are, over here, and I'm a sucker for books, so there.

So, I've bought the 2024 DMG. Everybody and their mother is sniffing its farts (regardless, I would have bought it anyway because I did like 2014). The 2014 couldn't do anything good in the genpop's eyes, apparently (even though I did think it was the best of the core rulebooks). But anyway, the 2024 DMG.
What don't I like about it?

- There was criticism on the 2014 guide for being too "in medias res", that it chucked you in without telling you what's what. I think that is not the case. But now 2024 speaks to you as if you're "special" (if you catch my drift). I get it, people must learn, and all, but it seems to be made for new DMs, I as a DM of several years don't get much out of it (contrary to what I believed I would).

- 2014 DMG had a fantastic way of building your own dungeon. It's gone.

- 2014 DMG had rules for lasting injuries and massive damage. They're gone.

- 2024 DMG assumes that you as a DM don't get into their Bastions. It's my game, I pretty damn well will go wherever I want to go.

- 2024 DMG seems to take power away from the DM. Used to be as a DM you were, essentially, the judge and boss of the game. But now they have tables and sheets and lists for everything: safety tools, hard and soft limits, even discussing the lethality of your campaign. It's simple. If he dies, he dies.

Generally I think this new DMG shoehorns the Dungeon Master in a subordinate position vs. the players. For those of you who may also already have flicked through it, is it me or do you have the same feeling?

- Edit: I'm too young (as a D&D player in a country that only has it for like ten or so years in big numbers) to have any Greyhawk material (I of course have heard of D&D since the early nineties), and the only thing I can think of is that Greyhawk is too much stripped down to be of any use.

The goal at WotC has been to remove the DM from the equation as much as possible. This was very prevalent during late 4E, and has now reared it's head again in the 2024 edition. They want to present you with rules to follow, they don't want you making rulings. 

Quote from: M2A0 on November 13, 2024, 09:21:12 AMThe goal at WotC has been to remove the DM from the equation as much as possible. This was very prevalent during late 4E, and has now reared it's head again in the 2024 edition. They want to present you with rules to follow, they don't want you making rulings. 

   I sarcastically predicted this for 5E in 2009, so given that you were there, can I take it as confirmed that this was something they wanted but just couldn't quite pull off outside the board games?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 13, 2024, 03:10:19 AMLook up the 1978 version. Everything after that was a mistake.

There is zero fat or hyperbole in this claim. I've been poring over older material recently, and it's a stone cold fact: pound for pound, the 1e DMG is king.

In all fairness, how long has the OSR community been telling WotC to go fuck themselves?

So yeah, Fisher Price: My First DMG isn't targeted at people who've been around since the 70s. Who didn't see that coming?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 13, 2024, 10:43:04 AM

Quote from: M2A0 on November 13, 2024, 09:21:12 AMThe goal at WotC has been to remove the DM from the equation as much as possible. This was very prevalent during late 4E, and has now reared it's head again in the 2024 edition. They want to present you with rules to follow, they don't want you making rulings. 

   I sarcastically predicted this for 5E in 2009, so given that you were there, can I take it as confirmed that this was something they wanted but just couldn't quite pull off outside the board games?

The "we need to remove the DM from the equation" push reached its height in 2010 - early summer 2011. The chief proponent was Kieran Chase. His idea to save 4E was collectible character boosters where you would collect your spells, class, magic items, etc.. in randomized boosters.

Fortunately Mearls & friends started playtesting proto-5E summer of 2011. (Fun fact, the earliest internal incarnation of 5E was essentially 1E D&D using the D20 system).

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 13, 2024, 10:43:04 AM

Quote from: M2A0 on November 13, 2024, 09:21:12 AMThe goal at WotC has been to remove the DM from the equation as much as possible. This was very prevalent during late 4E, and has now reared it's head again in the 2024 edition. They want to present you with rules to follow, they don't want you making rulings. 

   I sarcastically predicted this for 5E in 2009, so given that you were there, can I take it as confirmed that this was something they wanted but just couldn't quite pull off outside the board games?

The "we need to remove the DM from the equation" push reached its height in 2010 - early summer 2011. The chief proponent was Kieran Chase. His idea to save 4E was collectible character boosters where you would collect your spells, class, magic items, etc.. in randomized boosters.

Fortunately Mearls & friends started playtesting proto-5E summer of 2011. (Fun fact, the earliest internal incarnation of 5E was essentially 1E D&D using the D20 system).

Quote from: M2A0 on November 13, 2024, 11:30:40 AMFortunately Mearls & friends started playtesting proto-5E summer of 2011. (Fun fact, the earliest internal incarnation of 5E was essentially 1E D&D using the D20 system).

  With 1E-style lethality, apparently. I remember the ghoul playtest demo ...

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 13, 2024, 01:25:23 PM

Quote from: M2A0 on November 13, 2024, 11:30:40 AMFortunately Mearls & friends started playtesting proto-5E summer of 2011. (Fun fact, the earliest internal incarnation of 5E was essentially 1E D&D using the D20 system).

  With 1E-style lethality, apparently. I remember the ghoul playtest demo ...

I ran Caves of Chaos using these rules. It was brutal.

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on November 13, 2024, 02:55:34 AMGenerally I think this new DMG shoehorns the Dungeon Master in a subordinate position vs. the players. For those of you who may also already have flicked through it, is it me or do you have the same feeling?

This was the design goal of fake 5e. Storygamer shackles on the DM. "The DM is there to serve the players."

Welcome to being little more than a vend-bot.

Quote from: Corolinth on November 13, 2024, 11:15:56 AMIn all fairness, how long has the OSR community been telling WotC to go fuck themselves?

So yeah, Fisher Price: My First DMG isn't targeted at people who've been around since the 70s. Who didn't see that coming?

This is actually not a bad thing and is a sound idea. You really do need to explain to new players and DMs the ropes. AD&D did this in a roundabout way. BX trimmed it down and was easier to get a handle on even with less tools.

Older players seem to keep forgetting that new players on their own kinad you know, need things explained and at least the basics. And then bitch incessantly about how new players "just dont get it."

Problem is wotc is not writing the fake DMG with any good intentions.

Quote from: Omega on November 13, 2024, 02:37:06 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on November 13, 2024, 02:55:34 AMGenerally I think this new DMG shoehorns the Dungeon Master in a subordinate position vs. the players. For those of you who may also already have flicked through it, is it me or do you have the same feeling?

This was the design goal of fake 5e. Storygamer shackles on the DM. "The DM is there to serve the players."

Welcome to being little more than a vend-bot.

Yes, exactly.

1E DMg had a huge wealth of information, coupled with some of the shittiest, piss poor organization ( even for rpg book of that time.

With the added bonus of Gygax who was very much in his micromanaging mindset of leaving information that need led to be both in the PHB and Monster Manual.

Thieves could build traps who knew because it was in the DMG. Not that I or players did because if you followed RAW you have to draw them. 🖕 Fuck you I ain't doing that.

Random Encounter tables nah DM don't need them in the Monster Manual where they belong. Let's give the DMs time to waste to look at two books.

I still routinely look at my 1E core set for nostalgia and entertainment. Buys let's not kid ourselves at the poor organization and sometimes poor advice given to DMs either.