Does anyone use Bond, Ideal, and Flaws

Ruprecht · November 10, 2024, 08:29:13 PM

5e has them. We added them to the sheet but none of my players have cared to use them and I'm wondering if they are universally ignored, helpful for newbies, or popular.

BadApple · November 10, 2024, 09:06:23 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on November 10, 2024, 08:29:13 PM5e has them. We added them to the sheet but none of my players have cared to use them and I'm wondering if they are universally ignored, helpful for newbies, or popular.

For me, it very much depends on the type of campaign I'm running. It makes a lot more sense in spy games and criminal underworld games than it does in dungeon crawls or exploration.

ForgottenF · November 10, 2024, 10:25:15 PM

I only ever played a small amount of 5e, but when we played Bonds/Ideals/Flaws went completely ignored.

HappyDaze · November 11, 2024, 02:20:48 AM

Quote from: Ruprecht on November 10, 2024, 08:29:13 PM5e has them. We added them to the sheet but none of my players have cared to use them and I'm wondering if they are universally ignored, helpful for newbies, or popular.

I think they have largely been ignored or at least under-played. The 2024 version of the game seems to discard them entirely.

Omega · November 11, 2024, 02:47:50 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 02:20:48 AM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 10, 2024, 08:29:13 PM5e has them. We added them to the sheet but none of my players have cared to use them and I'm wondering if they are universally ignored, helpful for newbies, or popular.
I think they have largely been ignored or at least under-played. The 2024 version of the game seems to discard them entirely.

What bugged the hell out of me was that the storygamers bitched incessantly about "there being no social mechanics!!!" when there was this whole fucking system.

Part of the problem was that wotc hardly ever used it either. Like almost none. I think the only thing less used was the faction system.

S'mon · November 11, 2024, 05:11:38 AM

It's not used, because the only mechanic is "GM grants Inspiration", which would require the GM to menorise everyone's BIF. Few groups want players yelling "I'm roleplaying my B/I/F!" constantly during the game to try to prise Inspiration from the GM.
Playing Dragonbane yesterday, conversely, most of us were enthusiastically playing our Weaknesses since doing so allowed us to claim an extra Advancement Check ***at the end of the session***.

So, it was a WoTC design fuck up as usual. The idea is not bad but implementation sucked.

Steven Mitchell · November 11, 2024, 09:03:39 AM

Quote from: S'mon on November 11, 2024, 05:11:38 AMIt's not used, because the only mechanic is "GM grants Inspiration", which would require the GM to menorise everyone's BIF. Few groups want players yelling "I'm roleplaying my B/I/F!" constantly during the game to try to prise Inspiration from the GM.
Playing Dragonbane yesterday, conversely, most of us were enthusiastically playing our Weaknesses since doing so allowed us to claim an extra Advancement Check ***at the end of the session***.

So, it was a WoTC design fuck up as usual. The idea is not bad but implementation sucked.

All that, plus it scales even more poorly than the average bad design. Most things don't start showing scaling issues until you get over 4-6 players, which means only the minority of us who often play with more need to adjust. And we've got lots of practice doing so. The B/I/F is cumbersome even at 3 players, and gets notably worse for every player added. So now the hurt lands right in the middle of the vast majority of groups--with GMs who have little experience navigating that particular hurdle.

Proving that the idiot idea was never play tested. There's no way it would survive even a casual test of any size.

yabaziou · November 11, 2024, 11:55:33 AM

I did not use them, but for my next campaign, in which I will be the DM, I will probably use them, since the players will start at level 9, and I hope it will help them to shape their characters and their group of adventurers.

zircher · November 11, 2024, 12:04:36 PM

Interesting, I recently played Fabula Ultima which has a bonds system. But, that one is invoked by the players (and potentially vetoed by the GM.) That puts the burden of using on the players except for the negative ones that the GM usually calls out. So, the system shares the load with with whole table. There's also a meta currency involved so it is not abused and to encourage PCs to inflict bad bonds on their characters.

THE_Leopold · November 11, 2024, 01:32:39 PM

I use them to give me some background on the players PC's. It's a baseline to give me plot points to work from.

Venka · November 11, 2024, 03:31:28 PM

I was in a game with them, and past the first few sessions I was the only one still trying with them I think. They don't seem bad, and they definitely help a player understand why their character should be having an opinion or taking action when the player might not otherwise care. So I think it helps the player bond with the character faster if they aren't all about that.
I don't think they are super important, but they are definitely a part about 5.0 that is well intentioned and not bad.

Opaopajr · November 11, 2024, 10:12:18 PM

Not really. Though I've been at & seen tables use Inspiration renewal and those bonds, ideals, & flaws and they enjoyed it. It helped some be less cautious and deliberately push out of their roleplay comfort zone for that extra Advantage roll. I'm happy to ignore Inspiration, but it worked for the youth to stay on role.

KingCheops · November 12, 2024, 08:29:14 PM

I find it runs into the same problems as elaborate "backstories." If the whole table comes together and makes BIFs that play together and have a chance of occurring in emergent table play then yeah sure. But often times they don't mesh in a way that's interesting to the table as a whole.

Ruprecht · November 12, 2024, 10:19:42 PM

Quote from: KingCheops on November 12, 2024, 08:29:14 PMI find it runs into the same problems as elaborate "backstories." If the whole table comes together and makes BIFs that play together and have a chance of occurring in emergent table play then yeah sure. But often times they don't mesh in a way that's interesting to the table as a whole.

That brings up an interesting issue, what if they conflict. It can be hard enough to justify why these folks are adventuring together and that could become even more difficult.

THE_Leopold · November 13, 2024, 04:09:58 PM

Quote from: KingCheops on November 12, 2024, 08:29:14 PMI find it runs into the same problems as elaborate "backstories." If the whole table comes together and makes BIFs that play together and have a chance of occurring in emergent table play then yeah sure. But often times they don't mesh in a way that's interesting to the table as a whole.

This is the job of the DM to help unify those stories and come up with some reasons why. So much story can be generated from this type of seed.

OR

Tell the players they need to come up with why they are working together and to have 1 or 2 other people in the party who they know and have worked, lived, etc. together using their BIFs.