I have game worlds that cover a whole range of human civilizations. 

Over here are the Europeans.  Over there are the Arabs (pre Muslim, with sexy harem girls who belly dance).  Over on this island are the Vikings, and this island is the Japanese. And so on.

It's then that you run into that guy who just hates it when you borrow real cultures from history.  If everything isn't 100% made up, you're doing it wrong.

And that know-it-all has never GM'ed a game.  He has never even offered to.  It's like inventing a culture is no big thing.  Why can't you do that every time?  Weird, right?

Personally, I like fantasy worlds to have recognizable cultures.  Japan in particular. 

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMSecond, I think most Western gamers have been browbeaten to the point where they are afraid to "offend" by treating that material in as hyperbolic a matter as they would their "own" culture.  The same person who wouldn't think twice about turning the Spanish Inquisition into a cybernetically enhanced super-soldier program with subdermal weaponry will look both ways before suggesting Shaolin Monks with samurai swords and machine guns.  In a home group (where everyone is friends)?  Sure!  But posting that to the Internet, where someone may call your day job and ask your boss if he knew you were an anti-Asian racist?  Nope.

The one difference between Euro-based and Asian-based non-historic fantasy is how the different people view their neighbors. Despite fighting two World Wars against the Germans, nobody in England is going to be upset with medieval German stuff in their RPG.

But I worked with a guy from Beijing in the late 90s who was pissed off when playing the Legend of Five Rings card game because they mixed Chinese and Japanese historic elements together. And, from my understanding, the anti-Japanese sentiment in mainland China is even worse than it was back then.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 02, 2024, 12:57:18 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMSecond, I think most Western gamers have been browbeaten to the point where they are afraid to "offend" by treating that material in as hyperbolic a matter as they would their "own" culture.  The same person who wouldn't think twice about turning the Spanish Inquisition into a cybernetically enhanced super-soldier program with subdermal weaponry will look both ways before suggesting Shaolin Monks with samurai swords and machine guns.  In a home group (where everyone is friends)?  Sure!  But posting that to the Internet, where someone may call your day job and ask your boss if he knew you were an anti-Asian racist?  Nope.

The one difference between Euro-based and Asian-based non-historic fantasy is how the different people view their neighbors. Despite fighting two World Wars against the Germans, nobody in England is going to be upset with medieval German stuff in their RPG.

But I worked with a guy from Beijing in the late 90s who was pissed off when playing the Legend of Five Rings card game because they mixed Chinese and Japanese historic elements together. And, from my understanding, the anti-Japanese sentiment in mainland China is even worse than it was back then.

I have spent some time in Korea, Taiwan, and Japan as well as having lived in the Philippines for 18 years.  There is a very strong sense of animosity and superiority between many of the Asian countries.  It's very strong between Japanese and Korean.  There's centuries of history that fosters bad blood between them.  (It would be easy to see one the good guys and other one the bad guys but I can make a good case that "everyone's the asshole here.")

Honestly, the concept of international forgiveness and cooperation is modern and western.  Remember, the French and the English had a long standing blood feud up until the late 1800s.  A fairly realistic view of any culture or nation to be hostile to it's neighbors unless there was a compelling reason to be otherwise. 

I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers here but do some actual research on this before flaming me.  Throughout the vast majority of human history, the "natural order" accepted by everyone is that the strong dominated the weak.  If two nations got into a conflict, it was a matter of when, not if, one country subsumed the other and enslaved the living remnants.  It's extremely new (about 150 years) and largely driven by American and British efforts that the idea of preserving different cultures and establishing a baseline for human rights.

Quote from: BadApple on November 02, 2024, 01:55:27 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 02, 2024, 12:57:18 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMSecond, I think most Western gamers have been browbeaten to the point where they are afraid to "offend" by treating that material in as hyperbolic a matter as they would their "own" culture.  The same person who wouldn't think twice about turning the Spanish Inquisition into a cybernetically enhanced super-soldier program with subdermal weaponry will look both ways before suggesting Shaolin Monks with samurai swords and machine guns.  In a home group (where everyone is friends)?  Sure!  But posting that to the Internet, where someone may call your day job and ask your boss if he knew you were an anti-Asian racist?  Nope.

The one difference between Euro-based and Asian-based non-historic fantasy is how the different people view their neighbors. Despite fighting two World Wars against the Germans, nobody in England is going to be upset with medieval German stuff in their RPG.

But I worked with a guy from Beijing in the late 90s who was pissed off when playing the Legend of Five Rings card game because they mixed Chinese and Japanese historic elements together. And, from my understanding, the anti-Japanese sentiment in mainland China is even worse than it was back then.

I have spent some time in Korea, Taiwan, and Japan as well as having lived in the Philippines for 18 years.  There is a very strong sense of animosity and superiority between many of the Asian countries.  It's very strong between Japanese and Korean.  There's centuries of history that fosters bad blood between them.  (It would be easy to see one the good guys and other one the bad guys but I can make a good case that "everyone's the asshole here.")

Honestly, the concept of international forgiveness and cooperation is modern and western.  Remember, the French and the English had a long standing blood feud up until the late 1800s.  A fairly realistic view of any culture or nation to be hostile to it's neighbors unless there was a compelling reason to be otherwise. 

I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers here but do some actual research on this before flaming me.  Throughout the vast majority of human history, the "natural order" accepted by everyone is that the strong dominated the weak.  If two nations got into a conflict, it was a matter of when, not if, one country subsumed the other and enslaved the living remnants.  It's extremely new (about 150 years) and largely driven by American and British efforts that the idea of preserving different cultures and establishing a baseline for human rights.

Greetings!

You are absolutely correct, BadApple! Jhkim often likes to grasp at jello in arguing with me against this historical reality. The strong and powerful always rule over the weaker. Historically, much of the time that results in the weaker nation, state or tribe being slaughtered and, as you said, the remnants enslaved. That has been the historical norm for millennia. In more modern times, the dynamic is somewhat more "gentle"--and less genocidal--but the power-dynamic is still very much in play. The priorities and interests of the larger, stronger nations take precedence over and above whatever the smaller, weaker nations might desire. In the halls of the fancy dinners and diplomats drinking cognac and smoking cigars, the smaller, weaker nations understand that they need to shut the fuck up and get with the program.

Abroad, it is also entirely normal for nations and peoples to hate each other based upon their history, as well as racism and religion. Most everyone views themselves as superior to their filthy, inferior neighbors. *Laughing* It is only in the pampered, feminized West that we clutch our pearls and REEE about any of this, especially amongst ourselves, while smugly assuming such assumptions and priorities are the same everywhere else in the world. The reality, of course, is very different. Other nations and peoples embrace whatever hatred and animosities towards their neighbors, and we are so often shocked and horrified. They often view us as arrogant, naive, and simplistic, as well as oblivious to the issues, history, and priorities that are important to *them*--rather than what we see as important.

If course, it always boggles me how so many people in the West somehow believe that Asia is "Strange and Exotic". Well, on the surface, certainly. Dig a bit deeper, though, and they aren't so strange or exotic after all. Chew into their histories, their cultures, their religions, their political dynamics and environments--and they are just like us. They have the same struggles, the same fears, as people in the West. The peoples of Asia have often even had the very same problems and challenges as nations in the West, and sometimes they have responded to such problems in the same manner, while at other times, they resolved the same kind of problem, but by going a different route or method. Still, though, they have typically faced the same concerns, problems, and struggles.

In my own campaign world of Thandor, creating and detailing different nations, such as Asian-type nations, differentiating them from more Western or Classical nations has been easy for me. The languages are different; the food may be exotic; the clothing materials and styles are certainly different; just like the architecture, the armour, weapons and gear; the laws and legal systems often seem bizarre or especially harsh--but at the core of it all, it also becomes very familiar and clear. Tragedy, greed, pride, glory, tradition, fear, dynastic lineage, jealousy, revenge, racism, lust, decadence, strength, discipline--all of these flaws and virtues are found in each and every Asian society and culture, whether dealing with China, Japan, India, Thailand, Vietnam, Korea, the Asian Steppes, Mongolia, and everywhere in between. It has helped in kind of broadcasting these issues and details sometimes with a bright neon colour, to make it easier for Non-Asian players to clue into what is going on, but once they get a taste of it, they start recognizing the familiar patterns, the familiar themes--as a foundation. *Laughing* Once they actually understand all of the familiar commonalities, it becomes easier for them to then understand some of the differences in approach or values, based upon the culture, race, or religion.

Of course, I don't provide huge historical lectures or "Lore Dumps" upon the players, but kind of feed it to them gradually, over time, and through different avenues and mediums. They gradually grow to understand the commonalities, and when it comes to the differences, and the different responses, they understand what those differences actually are, and *why* they are different--what historical aspect, philosophy, religion, or cultural value that is the foundation that animates that difference.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

To borrow something else Shark said, I think another way to embed "asianess" in a setting is just being casual about different names and practices. Don't need to make a big deal of it every time, just consistently describe the different food and culture as if it is an everyday occurrence, which to those nations, it is. By the third time you talk about getting a meal at an inn or tavern the players might already understand that it's a Chinese/japanese/korean/vietnamese meal if you have been consistent with descriptions and you won't need to go into a lot of detail.

That of course assumes that the players are spending a lot of time in the not-Asia areas. If they are just visiting fantasy Japan for a couple adventures then why not make it mysterious and strange? Bringing it back to the original premise of the topic, realism is dumb in this situation because they are strangers in a strange land and trying to make it realistic can actually detract from the vibe.

And yes, Asians do hold on to national/racial animosities in the modern day. Hell, Europeans do too, it's just people pretend that Italians and Spaniards don't actually distrust each other deep down, or that fucking everyone hates gypsies.

Quote from: BadApple on November 02, 2024, 01:55:27 PMI have spent some time in Korea, Taiwan, and Japan as well as having lived in the Philippines for 18 years.  There is a very strong sense of animosity and superiority between many of the Asian countries.  It's very strong between Japanese and Korean.  There's centuries of history that fosters bad blood between them.  (It would be easy to see one the good guys and other one the bad guys but I can make a good case that "everyone's the asshole here.")

People generally have their reasons but, it is often either generational hatred or government nurtured hatred. Also, North Korea has their own sort of special spin on it. Almost all of the countries have forms of cooperation and friendliness that don't directly involve any Western country - though I don't know of any involving NK that have gone well.

I also think its worth digging more into the history and culture of specific countries because they have their own rich mythologies, culture and folklore.