And then there is this. An outlier maybe but still. "Why a Quintessentially Chinese Movie Was Made in Hollywood"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/11/AR2008071103281_pf.html

ON the mashup angle, I don't see any particular issue with it. There isn't anything wrong with blending cultures in a setting IMO. Pastiches are pretty standard for fantasy. And then there are campaigns that maybe vaguely pull on some of these elements but are even more broadly blended with European stuff. I've run all types of campaigns: mash-ups and more focused on a particular genre or region; I've also run tons of both the 1E and 3E oriental adventures, and I ran a d20 wuxia campaign that stripped out parts from tons of d20 supplements and non-D&D systems like Feng Shui; and I ran one that was a pretty standard western fantasy with dragons but the kobolds all had asian martial arts oriented cultures---and most of the PCs in that campaign were kobolds). Getting creative with tropes and history is one of the reasons I like GMing. It doesn't make sense to me that a world mashing up those elements would be considered wrong for some reason. I think these things tend to be a bit cyclical though, and what is out there tends to reflect what genres have strong presence in the culture (i.e. if tons of games are leaning into Japan or samurai movies, people who want something leaning more into China or wuxia will make games that serve that need).

Real Asians seem far more pissed off at cultural Marxist distortion of their history than at traditional Laser Katana Rule-of-Cool stuff. They tend to like the latter. Just as I wasn't offended by the presentation of Britain in (eg) Hellsing. It may not be any resemblance to reality, but it looks cool. That should be enough.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 24, 2024, 12:47:22 AMparticularly getting architecture and other material culture wrong.

Considering how much effort Ubisoft claimed they put into getting those things right, the response is understandable and may not have happened otherwise. They did do a decent job with the material culture of Ptolemaic Egypt, Classical Greece and Golden Age Baghdad etc. It's about the expectations they set.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 23, 2024, 09:08:46 PMWhile I agree that a lot of the outrage comes from Americans who happen to be of Asian extraction, what you'd probably consider to be legit Asians can also be surprisingly sensitive about how their cultures get represented by the filthy round-eyes. I was pretty surprised at the level of outrage that poured out from East Asia in regard to the last Mulan movie and the upcoming Assassin's Creed Shadows.

A Couple of examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ5_gjUWfTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaggj0S49ws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3QKq24e0HM

Coming from a Korean background, I don't mind general lack of authenticity, but I do get annoyed at some things -- particularly over Japanese tropes being presented as "generic Asian" to be found all over the mainland. This isn't a modern American or college thing - it's common in the older generation in Korea.

During the occupation (1910 to 1945), the Japanese did their best to wipe out Korean culture. My father grew up under occupation, and had to go through things like not being allowed to speak Korean in school, and being beaten if he was caught doing so. Most cultural sites like palaces were burned by the Japanese and had to be reconstructed later.

Because of this, it bugs me, say, to have samurai and ninja being presented as generically Asian.

Quote from: S'mon on October 24, 2024, 02:59:08 PMReal Asians seem far more pissed off at cultural Marxist distortion of their history than at traditional Laser Katana Rule-of-Cool stuff. They tend to like the latter. Just as I wasn't offended by the presentation of Britain in (eg) Hellsing. It may not be any resemblance to reality, but it looks cool. That should be enough.

This tends to be what I experience as well.  Hell, a lot of the guys I've spent time with enjoy the American take on their cultures.  It's wrong more than right but usually pretty flattering and always entertaining.

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 03:27:10 PMI think leaning into heavy authenticity scares the noobs. Thoughts?

I used to run Legends of the Five Rings at Commiefornia game cons and I met 3 White males who got college degrees in various Asian history/culture studies because of Gary's Oriental Adventures and L5R. One was fluent in Japanese and got his PhD in Japanese history and archeology.

That last one was great player as he could put aside his obsession to just enjoy L5R for what it was with no concern for authenticity.

I get the authenticity issue. Nobody wants to feel dumb, especially when playing a game. Playing a faux-historical game brings the assumption that you need to know some history stuff to be able to play effectively.

And...that's true. You kinda do. Not for L5R as much, but definitely for Bushido. 

I've toyed with the idea of making a RPG called "Chow Mein Fantasy" where we gleefully play Asian inspired fantasy with zero authenticity, but that would probably get nuked off Kickstarter.

It's predominantly a fear of committing Orientalism while being completely blind to their Occidentalism. Simple as that. People are simple beings and mash up unfamiliar areas until someone's feelings are hurt, then they try to make an effort to not.

But you always got to leave a % for the "samurai sword uber alles" superfans.

The funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 12:21:19 AMThe funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

How do you present your material to your players so that you convey the Asian flavor to your players?

Quote from: BadApple on November 01, 2024, 06:55:12 AM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 12:21:19 AMThe funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

How do you present your material to your players so that you convey the Asian flavor to your players?

A lot of it comes down to literally the language I use at the table. I speak Cantonese and am familiar enough with other East Asian languages that I can bs words that soundly vaguely correct. By simply renaming things to a vaguely Asian equivalent (knightly orders become heroic brotherhoods, frequent use of "imperial" and "emperor", etc.) I can ground the world in an Asian aesthetic from the outset. Then add in some Confucian morals, which a lot of Asia uses, and you get a pretty good working baseline for at least a veneer of asianess. Then I add in monsters ripped straight from journey to the west or Japanese myth and make allusions to historical events and stories like the poems about Fa Mulan and the Ming dynasty treasure ships. It does take a bit of effort, especially if a person is not as familiar with East Asian history and culture.

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 08:35:51 AM

Quote from: BadApple on November 01, 2024, 06:55:12 AM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 12:21:19 AMThe funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

How do you present your material to your players so that you convey the Asian flavor to your players?

A lot of it comes down to literally the language I use at the table. I speak Cantonese and am familiar enough with other East Asian languages that I can bs words that soundly vaguely correct. By simply renaming things to a vaguely Asian equivalent (knightly orders become heroic brotherhoods, frequent use of "imperial" and "emperor", etc.) I can ground the world in an Asian aesthetic from the outset. Then add in some Confucian morals, which a lot of Asia uses, and you get a pretty good working baseline for at least a veneer of asianess. Then I add in monsters ripped straight from journey to the west or Japanese myth and make allusions to historical events and stories like the poems about Fa Mulan and the Ming dynasty treasure ships. It does take a bit of effort, especially if a person is not as familiar with East Asian history and culture.

That seems to line up a lot with what I said earlier:

Quote from: BadApple on October 23, 2024, 11:20:02 AMPlayers just see it as Western fantasy stuff unless I make is explicitly clear it's Asian.  I would say a solid one half of the adventure setups in my campaigns have been directly ripped from Wuxia and Clashing Swords movies and no one has ever made the connection.  I love using the Chinese Confucius bureaucracy structure to to pattern in game fae governments to contrast them from human governments.

OTOH, I think you could straight up take D&D 2e with no editing, change the art to Asian art, rename the classes and a few other things, and you have a gonzo Asian fantasy game.  It's obvious to me that there's already a lot of things borrowed from Eastern cultures already.  Metallic dragons are clearly Loongs/Ryu(chineese dragons).

Look at film.  How many Westerns have been made into Clashing Swords or Wuxia movies and vice versa?  How many of these are you familiar with?
The Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven
A Fist Full of Dollars/Yojimbo
Unforgiven/Unforgiven
Infernal Affairs/The Departed
Hidden Fortress/Star Wars

I went to the movies with my wife opening weekend for The Departed and 20 minutes in she goes "I've already seen this movie."  She'd seen Infernal Affairs and recognized it right away.

I think the human experience is universal enough that the differences really come down to details and focus.  Do you have any thoughts one way or another in my perspective?

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 12:21:19 AMThe funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

This is exactly how my games are.

But it's weird watching people on forums talk about "Asian-themed" games descend into really granular specifics that even most Asians don't know about their own cultural history. We need that "Asian sweet spot" which uses Asian motifs like Realms or Greyhawk does for European analogs and keep it fun. Kara-Tur and Rokugan did it well. I never understood the critcisms that it was "Too Japanese" or "Not Chinese enough", what's funny is Kara-Tur did it all - even Kozakura is split into pre-and-post Tokugawa era by having Wa as an alternative to Kozakura. But you rarely see people say that of Realms or Greyhawk. It's not "Too English or French".

More to the point - MOST historical accuracy quibbles are over time-period accuracy of *gear*.

Quote from: tenbones on November 01, 2024, 03:25:47 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 12:21:19 AMThe funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

This is exactly how my games are.

But it's weird watching people on forums talk about "Asian-themed" games descend into really granular specifics that even most Asians don't know about their own cultural history. We need that "Asian sweet spot" which uses Asian motifs like Realms or Greyhawk does for European analogs and keep it fun. Kara-Tur and Rokugan did it well. I never understood the critcisms that it was "Too Japanese" or "Not Chinese enough", what's funny is Kara-Tur did it all - even Kozakura is split into pre-and-post Tokugawa era by having Wa as an alternative to Kozakura. But you rarely see people say that of Realms or Greyhawk. It's not "Too English or French".

More to the point - MOST historical accuracy quibbles are over time-period accuracy of *gear*.

The anti-anachronistic crowd baffles me the most when it comes to fantasy.  "magic is ok but have a pocket watch 3 years before they were invented is a horrible no-no."

So, yes, I agree with what you said BadApple. Players in the West tend to default to European aesthetics for their imagined realms. Using explicitly non-European imagery and themes is pretty much how I shift the tone of my games. I don't blame anyone for this. People imagine what they know.

Another funny bit of irony is that, despite how some people in old school RPG circles feel about it, the rise in the popularity of anime has made it easier to do Asian themed games. Causally mentioning how a character or place resembles something else from Demon Slayer or Inuyasha, for examples of popular anime, immediately sets the scene for even a lot of normies. I suspect it's going to get easier to run Asian themed games as Asian media keeps seeping into the West since a lot of western popular media is, frankly, not worth consuming.

Also, I do quibble with gear accuracy in my game. But it's less about anachronism and more about why are daggers so weak? In every culture that has developed advanced armor, daggers and knives have likely killed more people in close combat than swords. I usually home brew a rule or feat that gives daggers something ridiculous for armor piercing or damage when grappling. As a Three Kingdoms fan (shocking, I know. You'd never guess from my name and pfp) anachronism is absolutely rife in Chinese literature. Guan Yu's famous crescent halberd would not be invented for practically a millennium after his death.