You could do a game that is a cool fusion of Asian elements the way standard D&D is for the Medieval & Ancient West. It is just that that knowledge isn't as ingrained in the average Westerner to pull it off. The synthesis of East Asia's history, it's classic cinema, old literature like Journey to the West, classic wuxia lit, classic xianxia lit, Japanese classical/Medieval lit and some of the better old light novels, orientalist pulp, and it's mythology in order to make something parallel in it's influences and vibe would be tons of effort.

As a side thought, there's been a bit of a boom in Asian fantasy videogames in recent years (most recently with Black Myth: Wukong being a huge success), along with a general increase in Asian (particularly Chinese and Korean) cultural influence in the west, so that might translate into an uptick in Asian fantasy RPGs at some point down the road.

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 09:57:03 PMBut I find it odd how hard people go on forums trying to get super-detailed in their Sengoku vs. Heian or Japanese vs. Chinese in their fantasy games.

At least as discussed in terms of RPG's that are out there. Where is the gonzo Asian stuff?

_Legend of the Five Rings_ is probably the most popular Asian-themed RPG setting, and it's not at all historical. It is Japanese flavored, but there's no history or realism to it.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/legend-of-the-five-rings-roleplaying-game/

There's also the _Feng Shui_ RPG by Robin Laws, which is very gonzo Hong-Kong-action-movie inspired.

https://www.atlas-games.com/fengshui/

LoFR is a great example of what I'd like to see more of. It seemed to really catch people's attention with a large boost from its start as a card game.

It is obviously Japanese, but there is not reason it couldn't be expanded.

Frankly, I wonder if Asian-themed RPG's without the strict adherence to "analog" historical reality would work without European elements (i.e. cultures) tossed in for points of entry for those less inclined due to Asian themed stuff being a little different.

I've had my players say the main issues are the lack of understanding of the cultures, I'm always trying to ease them in through the other said ala "Shogun" where they're westerners sent to the Asian cultures for adventure reasons. That seems to work much better than tossing them in straight away.

What are the experiences of the rest of you when trying to introduce Asian themed stuff to your groups?

The main reason is to just have something, anything, be different than just strong Fighters, Wizards in robes, halfling thieves, elf rangers, castles, and another underground maze that is inexplicably filled with traps and deaf monsters that can't hear a battle going on literally in the next room. 

So, it's not that Japan or China is better or worse, but we sweat the details because the exotic world is why we are here.  We want to see and do things differently this time to keep it fresh.  That's why getting the cultural experience right is important.  Or rather, the cultural differences. 

It's sort of why people travel.  To see new things. Emphasis on the new. 

I'll write that again.  Emphasis on the new. 

Quote from: tenbones on October 23, 2024, 10:30:41 AMWhat are the experiences of the rest of you when trying to introduce Asian themed stuff to your groups?

Players just see it as Western fantasy stuff unless I make is explicitly clear it's Asian.  I would say a solid one half of the adventure setups in my campaigns have been directly ripped from Wuxia and Clashing Swords movies and no one has ever made the connection.  I love using the Chinese Confucius bureaucracy structure to to pattern in game fae governments to contrast them from human governments.

OTOH, I think you could straight up take D&D 2e with no editing, change the art to Asian art, rename the classes and a few other things, and you have a gonzo Asian fantasy game.  It's obvious to me that there's already a lot of things borrowed from Eastern cultures already.  Metallic dragons are clearly Loongs/Ryu(chineese dragons).

Look at film.  How many Westerns have been made into Clashing Swords or Wuxia movies and vice versa?  How many of these are you familiar with?
The Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven
A Fist Full of Dollars/Yojimbo
Unforgiven/Unforgiven
Infernal Affairs/The Departed
Hidden Fortress/Star Wars

I went to the movies with my wife opening weekend for The Departed and 20 minutes in she goes "I've already seen this movie."  She'd seen Infernal Affairs and recognized it right away.

Quote from: tenbones on October 23, 2024, 10:30:41 AMWhat are the experiences of the rest of you when trying to introduce Asian themed stuff to your groups?

I think it just takes time. Most players, if the setting interests them, start either watching or reading more relevant source material, or paying more attention to it. I've found it to be something players largely react well to.

I think a lot of folks have already made valid points concerning most of the major issues or perceptions so I'll not rehash them here.  As someone who does have a fairly solid knowledge of Asian history and culture, particularly East Asia, I have no problem mashing up Asian-inspired fantasy just like "regular" D&D.  It was Kung Fu Theater and James Clavell novels that largely sparked my interests in Asia in the first place.  So in my campaign world, there are Asian-inspired realms (located west of the European ones) that are derived from real world examples, but mashed up.  So there's a Japan analogue, but without an emperor; they just have a shogun.  The Korean analogue has a king but it subordinate to the China/Tibet mashup [Celestial Empire of Leng].  And the place modeled on India is in total disarray as it was destroyed by yuan ti centuries ago.  Players don't seem to care, so long as they can play a samurai or whatever.  Actually one of my all-time favorite PCs is a Half-elf samurai whose father was from Mimana ([pseudo-Japan) and whose mother was an elven ranger.  I also have a monk based on the monk-soldiers who fought the Japanese during the Hideyoshi invasions of the 1590s.  So I say, mash that shit up.

Someone should make a game where characters are Portuguese in Macao or Nagasaki.

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 23, 2024, 05:51:50 PMSomeone should make a game where characters are Portuguese in Macao or Nagasaki.

Literally a thing in my the game I'm doing.  You can in fact be a Iga shinobi who is of Portuguese origin.  It'll be a rare result from a multi tier random table rolled on during PC creation.

I don't have a real historical example of this happening but I do have some basis for why and how it might have happened.  The clans in Iga accepted outsiders and integrated them on more than one occasion as well as formed long term close and trusting relationships with those from outside their province.  It's believed that remnants of the Taira were accepted as they fled from the Minamoto at the end of the Gempei war.

When the Song Dynasty collapsed due to the the pressure of the Mongols, several nobles fled to Japan.  They were absorbed into the local population in Iga.  I believe that this explains many things, among them a high degree of literacy for a remote mountain population, a very refined manual of arms for a form of warfare almost completely alien to the war clans of Japan, and several advanced tools and weapons that are clearly of Song origin and not in use by others.     

Tokugawa and his retinue formed a friendship with some of the shinobi clans while fleeing for their lives right after the Hono-Ji incident.  (I cannot overstate how incredible this is.  Tokugawa was a close ally of Oda who was responsible for killing many Iga residents just a year earlier.)  Hattori Hanzo, a samurai retainer of Tokugawa, used his connection with the Iga shinobi to form a special operations unit.  There are several stories of Hattori Hanzo and his Shadow Riders that are some of my favorite military operations stories.

I don't think it would be a stretch for a shinobi team to see the value in a skilled Portuguese naval sailor or soldier and adopt him into the family.  I believe it would have been more an issue geographic opportunity and language barrier than any other consideration as to why it may not have happened.   

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 03:27:10 PMSlight riff from the Samurai thread... but it got me thinking. It's something I've noticed, especially on this forum, but others as well.

Why is it, when talking about Asian RPG's there seems to be this almost immediate descent into "realism" or very narrow "wants" in their Asian-flavored gaming that "seems" to be less stressed than European fare?

We all know D&D is basically Euro-flavored Renfaire Fantasy elevated with whatever authenticity to period(s) that float your boat. Even D&D isn't that specific, mixing and matching Bronze and Iron Age conceits fairly freely. And cultural analogs often mix different periods within the same culture.

Why do people get anal about it with Asian cultures? I'm Asian and even I notice it. You have those that dislike Japanese-fare, and prefer Chinese "fantasy", or they get into Jungle-Asian cultural stuff (which is cool), but it *seems* inevitably that discussions lean towards trying to get as authentic as possible over what might otherwise simply be "fun"? I think there is a middle-ground.

My players are terrified of when I'd GM Kara-Tur as Americans that generally know nothing about Asian, much less feudal Asian societies. I think leaning into heavy authenticity scares the noobs. Thoughts?

I think there' a two-part answer here.  The first is social, the second is mental.  First, there has been such an outcry by Fasians (the fake-Asians... who have an Asian heritage, but are fully Westernized... have fetishized their heritage to the point where it has become a religion for them) about cultural appropriation and such a outgrowth of cultural sensitivity reader grifting that most major publishers would have to have a death-wish to approach the topic.  And a small designer or publisher would be digging their own grave without paying the sensitivity-reader Danegeld that they probably can't afford.  So anything that is done will have to be done by fans (who may or may not prove to be immune to the pressure).

Second, I think most Western gamers have been browbeaten to the point where they are afraid to "offend" by treating that material in as hyperbolic a matter as they would their "own" culture.  The same person who wouldn't think twice about turning the Spanish Inquisition into a cybernetically enhanced super-soldier program with subdermal weaponry will look both ways before suggesting Shaolin Monks with samurai swords and machine guns.  In a home group (where everyone is friends)?  Sure!  But posting that to the Internet, where someone may call your day job and ask your boss if he knew you were an anti-Asian racist?  Nope.

And thus, much that could have been won't be, because people censor themselves in the prevailing cultural zeitgeist...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMThe first is social, the second is mental.  First, there has been such an outcry by Fasians (the fake-Asians... who have an Asian heritage, but are fully Westernized... have fetishized their heritage to the point where it has become a religion for them) about cultural appropriation and such a outgrowth of cultural sensitivity reader grifting that most major publishers would have to have a death-wish to approach the topic.  And a small designer or publisher would be digging their own grave without paying the sensitivity-reader Danegeld that they probably can't afford.  So anything that is done will have to be done by fans (who may or may not prove to be immune to the pressure).

While I agree that a lot of the outrage comes from Americans who happen to be of Asian extraction, what you'd probably consider to be legit Asians can also be surprisingly sensitive about how their cultures get represented by the filthy round-eyes. I was pretty surprised at the level of outrage that poured out from East Asia in regard to the last Mulan movie and the upcoming Assassin's Creed Shadows.

A Couple of examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ5_gjUWfTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaggj0S49ws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3QKq24e0HM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 23, 2024, 09:08:46 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMThe first is social, the second is mental.  First, there has been such an outcry by Fasians (the fake-Asians... who have an Asian heritage, but are fully Westernized... have fetishized their heritage to the point where it has become a religion for them) about cultural appropriation and such a outgrowth of cultural sensitivity reader grifting that most major publishers would have to have a death-wish to approach the topic.  And a small designer or publisher would be digging their own grave without paying the sensitivity-reader Danegeld that they probably can't afford.  So anything that is done will have to be done by fans (who may or may not prove to be immune to the pressure).

While I agree that a lot of the outrage comes from Americans who happen to be of Asian extraction, what you'd probably consider to be legit Asians can also be surprisingly sensitive about how their cultures get represented by the filthy round-eyes. I was pretty surprised at the level of outrage that poured out from East Asia in regard to the last Mulan movie and the upcoming Assassin's Creed Shadows.

A Couple of examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ5_gjUWfTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaggj0S49ws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3QKq24e0HM

I don't think the "black samurai" controversy in Assassin's Creed really supports your argument.  There's at least as many Westerners who are just as mad.  It's not about representation, and all about stupid choices...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 09:58:44 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 23, 2024, 09:08:46 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMThe first is social, the second is mental.  First, there has been such an outcry by Fasians (the fake-Asians... who have an Asian heritage, but are fully Westernized... have fetishized their heritage to the point where it has become a religion for them) about cultural appropriation and such a outgrowth of cultural sensitivity reader grifting that most major publishers would have to have a death-wish to approach the topic.  And a small designer or publisher would be digging their own grave without paying the sensitivity-reader Danegeld that they probably can't afford.  So anything that is done will have to be done by fans (who may or may not prove to be immune to the pressure).

While I agree that a lot of the outrage comes from Americans who happen to be of Asian extraction, what you'd probably consider to be legit Asians can also be surprisingly sensitive about how their cultures get represented by the filthy round-eyes. I was pretty surprised at the level of outrage that poured out from East Asia in regard to the last Mulan movie and the upcoming Assassin's Creed Shadows.

A Couple of examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ5_gjUWfTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaggj0S49ws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3QKq24e0HM

I don't think the "black samurai" controversy in Assassin's Creed really supports your argument.  There's at least as many Westerners who are just as mad.  It's not about representation, and all about stupid choices...

I suppose it depends on who you ask. I was following the controversy for a while and there were certainly a lot of complaints being raised that weren't referencing the Yasuke character, and instead had to do with other misrepresentations of the historical setting, particularly getting architecture and other material culture wrong. Everything from the fact that Ubisoft released a collectible figurine of the characters sitting on a broken Torii gate (which apparently is a symbol associated with the Nagasaki bomb site) to them mixing up which plants are in bloom in certain seasons. Usually the phrase used is that Ubisoft is not "respecting" Japanese culture.

Of course some have suggested that all of that is smokescreen and these complaints wouldn't have been made if it wasn't for the Afro-Samurai thing. In fairness, I'm sure you could point to plenty of examples of equally inaccurate media that didn't receive anything like the same backlash. If nothing else, it's probably fair to say that the Yasuke situation got the eyes on it and then people started looking for other problems.

There are two chief complaints from Japan over Assassins Creed.

1.  The whole bastardization of history and claiming their changes is the real history.  Ubisoft went so far as to hire a "historian" to push a false interpretation of history as fact.  The individual complaints about things like architecture are extensions of this core complaint.  Had Ubisoft simply said that they took inspiration from things they discovered in Japanese history and went with their imaginations rather than literally trying to rewrite their history to fit a narrative there wouldn't have been anything like the backlash they got. 

2.  The statuette with the broken Torii gate was a straight up cultural insult.
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The one legged Torii gate of Nagasaki is a remnant of the atomic bomb damage to the city.  It has a strong cultural resonance with the Japanese historically and spiritually.  In the mix with everything else, this came across as really callous and disrespectful.
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In my experience, Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, and Filipinos don't really mind Westerners borrowing cultural elements in fictional and fantastical ways and often find it flattering.  A group of Japanese gamers even brought out a copy of Oriental Adventures for me to run for them.  In short, be honest and don't belittle or ridicule and you can have a lot of fun with Asian inspiration with their blessings and maybe even encouragement.