6E D&D isn't a TTRPG, its a digital tabletop.  They are selling the digital tabletop not the game.  You'll never own the game in the first place.

Most people can get better systems from other games and implement them into 5E and create a better game than what WotC tried to do for their new VTT.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 20, 2024, 12:14:02 AM6E D&D isn't a TTRPG, its a digital tabletop.  They are selling the digital tabletop not the game.  You'll never own the game in the first place.

Are you referring to something other than the 2024 revision of the core 5e rules? Because if that's what you're calling 6E, you'd be wrong--I most certainly do own a copy of the 2024 PHB (so I "own the game") and plan on buying the other titles when available.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 20, 2024, 01:02:54 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 20, 2024, 12:14:02 AM6E D&D isn't a TTRPG, its a digital tabletop.  They are selling the digital tabletop not the game.  You'll never own the game in the first place.

Are you referring to something other than the 2024 revision of the core 5e rules? Because if that's what you're calling 6E, you'd be wrong--I most certainly do own a copy of the 2024 PHB (so I "own the game") and plan on buying the other titles when available.

I get it. WotC/Hasbro is an evil corporation embracing all that is wicked in society. But fot God's sake, all the people telling easily refutable lies about it sways no one and just discredits people with legitimate complaints.

There's plenty of legitimate things to complain about with 5e (of which elements of the 2024 PHB are only some) and Hasbro's business model that making things up just feels like self-sabotage at this point.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 22, 2024, 10:14:44 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 20, 2024, 01:02:54 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 20, 2024, 12:14:02 AM6E D&D isn't a TTRPG, its a digital tabletop.  They are selling the digital tabletop not the game.  You'll never own the game in the first place.

Are you referring to something other than the 2024 revision of the core 5e rules? Because if that's what you're calling 6E, you'd be wrong--I most certainly do own a copy of the 2024 PHB (so I "own the game") and plan on buying the other titles when available.

I get it. WotC/Hasbro is an evil corporation embracing all that is wicked in society. But fot God's sake, all the people telling easily refutable lies about it sways no one and just discredits people with legitimate complaints.

There's plenty of legitimate things to complain about with 5e (of which elements of the 2024 PHB are only some) and Hasbro's business model that making things up just feels like self-sabotage at this point.

People make two huge mistakes whenever they talk about this topic:

1) Just because Hasbro's plan failed doesn't mean it wasn't the plan.
2) Just because Hasbro's plan was bad to begin with doesn't mean it wasn't the plan.

Yes, Hasbro was trying to do some version of what honeydipperdavid accuses them of. Pretending they weren't just because they failed doesn't convince anybody. The entire OGL debacle was all about trying to push as many people as possible onto their digital subscription service so they could employ the same microtransaction monetization strategy that video game companies are pursuing.

The fact that HappyDaze has a physical copy doesn't refute honeydipperdavid's claim. It just indicates that Hasbro wasn't so stupid as to think they were actually going to go full digital all at once. Hasbro is a big company, they're not going to have just one plan. No company gets that large without having multiple contingency plans.

Quote from: Corolinth on October 22, 2024, 12:09:13 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 22, 2024, 10:14:44 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 20, 2024, 01:02:54 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 20, 2024, 12:14:02 AM6E D&D isn't a TTRPG, its a digital tabletop.  They are selling the digital tabletop not the game.  You'll never own the game in the first place.

Are you referring to something other than the 2024 revision of the core 5e rules? Because if that's what you're calling 6E, you'd be wrong--I most certainly do own a copy of the 2024 PHB (so I "own the game") and plan on buying the other titles when available.

I get it. WotC/Hasbro is an evil corporation embracing all that is wicked in society. But fot God's sake, all the people telling easily refutable lies about it sways no one and just discredits people with legitimate complaints.

There's plenty of legitimate things to complain about with 5e (of which elements of the 2024 PHB are only some) and Hasbro's business model that making things up just feels like self-sabotage at this point.

People make two huge mistakes whenever they talk about this topic:

1) Just because Hasbro's plan failed doesn't mean it wasn't the plan.
2) Just because Hasbro's plan was bad to begin with doesn't mean it wasn't the plan.

Yes, Hasbro was trying to do some version of what honeydipperdavid accuses them of. Pretending they weren't just because they failed doesn't convince anybody. The entire OGL debacle was all about trying to push as many people as possible onto their digital subscription service so they could employ the same microtransaction monetization strategy that video game companies are pursuing.

The fact that HappyDaze has a physical copy doesn't refute honeydipperdavid's claim. It just indicates that Hasbro wasn't so stupid as to think they were actually going to go full digital all at once. Hasbro is a big company, they're not going to have just one plan. No company gets that large without having multiple contingency plans.

So you're going with "alternative facts" then to say that just because I own it doesn't mean that "you'll never own the game" is false. Nice reasoning there.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 23, 2024, 02:28:48 AM

Quote from: Corolinth on October 22, 2024, 12:09:13 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 22, 2024, 10:14:44 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 20, 2024, 01:02:54 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 20, 2024, 12:14:02 AM6E D&D isn't a TTRPG, its a digital tabletop.  They are selling the digital tabletop not the game.  You'll never own the game in the first place.

Are you referring to something other than the 2024 revision of the core 5e rules? Because if that's what you're calling 6E, you'd be wrong--I most certainly do own a copy of the 2024 PHB (so I "own the game") and plan on buying the other titles when available.

I get it. WotC/Hasbro is an evil corporation embracing all that is wicked in society. But fot God's sake, all the people telling easily refutable lies about it sways no one and just discredits people with legitimate complaints.

There's plenty of legitimate things to complain about with 5e (of which elements of the 2024 PHB are only some) and Hasbro's business model that making things up just feels like self-sabotage at this point.

People make two huge mistakes whenever they talk about this topic:

1) Just because Hasbro's plan failed doesn't mean it wasn't the plan.
2) Just because Hasbro's plan was bad to begin with doesn't mean it wasn't the plan.

Yes, Hasbro was trying to do some version of what honeydipperdavid accuses them of. Pretending they weren't just because they failed doesn't convince anybody. The entire OGL debacle was all about trying to push as many people as possible onto their digital subscription service so they could employ the same microtransaction monetization strategy that video game companies are pursuing.

The fact that HappyDaze has a physical copy doesn't refute honeydipperdavid's claim. It just indicates that Hasbro wasn't so stupid as to think they were actually going to go full digital all at once. Hasbro is a big company, they're not going to have just one plan. No company gets that large without having multiple contingency plans.

So you're going with "alternative facts" then to say that just because I own it doesn't mean that "you'll never own the game" is false. Nice reasoning there.

Indeed.

If your argument is "despite setbacks, WotC is still moving towards an all digital platform where 'you will own nothing and be happy' and physical books will be abandoned" then argue that.

Don't argue "You'll never own the current game (that is literally in people's hands and on shelves)." That makes you look at least ill-informed or to be an outright liar with some other agenda than just informing potential customers of the truth. Either way, they'll dismiss everything afterwards out of hand because the source is like that homeless doomsday prophet screaming on the corner. Sure, someday the world will end, and in the timespan of eternity a billion years is an eyeblink and thus imminent... but he's still a crazy person you have every reason to ignore.

Honestly? It feels like some people (or at least their online personas) have turned hating WotC into a religion for who hold to their articles of faith over objective reality. That is extremely counterproductive if your actual goal is to sway people to not invest further into WotC products.

For example, if you wanted to dissuade people, start with the awful interior art, or that they did nothing about hit point bloat, or that they removed a lot of the charm of the old backgrounds by replacing the story-based non-combat ability with a generic feat, or the initial decision to keep most bonuses within a range under half the die size and modify that with re-rolls and adding extra non-d20's to the checks (i.e. +1d4 or +1d8) results in horrendously unrealistic outcomes because the devs back in 2012-14 couldn't be assed with actually trying to grok how probabilities work in small cases (a few dozens rolls in a row can fall well outside the standard deviation from the idealized averages).

Or how about the slow roll of releases meaning the new core books are releasing months apart and the MM won't even be out until next year, or their changes to distribution making the formerly easy to find discounts for their books vanish like an Arizona frost, or that they still don't have the 3.5 SRD up on CC as they promised they would... as if it was just a false promise to get the heat off them during the OGL fiasco where they irrevocably damaged any trust in the OGL going forward.

There's plenty of nonsense you can beat WotC over the head with without needing to discredit yourself with false to observed facts claims.

From the transcript today of the Hasbro earnings call. These are covered as "forward looking statements" meaning it's very illegal to lie or mislead investors during one of these calls, and not something Hasbro would do over something as small as D&D:



For D&D, the updated Player's Handbook for fifth edition is now our fastest selling product in D&D's 50-year history, beating plan by over 50%. And our acquisition of D&D Beyond continues to pay off, driving D&D's total mix of direct-to-consumer revenue from zero at the time of acquisition, to 60% today, with registered users more than doubling to 19 million. I'm excited for fans to get their hands on the new Dungeon Master's Guide releasing next month. The new artwork is a hit and the streamlined introduction to running campaigns has been met with stellar early reviews.

_________________

Thanks, Kern, and good morning. Q3 continued to demonstrate the bottom-line benefits of the structural and strategic changes we are making at Hasbro. Two of our strongest profit areas, games and licensing, outperformed, expanding operating profit margin for the third consecutive quarter. The dynamics we're observing across Magic and D&D, in both analog and digital, reinforce our confidence in the long-term health of the brands. Our competitive advantage as an IP licensor is also gaining steam, as we see the staying power of Monopoly Go!, the resurgence of fan favorite brands like My Little Pony, and strong POS growth in our out-licensed toy portfolio.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 23, 2024, 02:28:48 AM

Quote from: Corolinth on October 22, 2024, 12:09:13 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 22, 2024, 10:14:44 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 20, 2024, 01:02:54 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 20, 2024, 12:14:02 AM6E D&D isn't a TTRPG, its a digital tabletop.  They are selling the digital tabletop not the game.  You'll never own the game in the first place.

Are you referring to something other than the 2024 revision of the core 5e rules? Because if that's what you're calling 6E, you'd be wrong--I most certainly do own a copy of the 2024 PHB (so I "own the game") and plan on buying the other titles when available.

I get it. WotC/Hasbro is an evil corporation embracing all that is wicked in society. But fot God's sake, all the people telling easily refutable lies about it sways no one and just discredits people with legitimate complaints.

There's plenty of legitimate things to complain about with 5e (of which elements of the 2024 PHB are only some) and Hasbro's business model that making things up just feels like self-sabotage at this point.

People make two huge mistakes whenever they talk about this topic:

1) Just because Hasbro's plan failed doesn't mean it wasn't the plan.
2) Just because Hasbro's plan was bad to begin with doesn't mean it wasn't the plan.

Yes, Hasbro was trying to do some version of what honeydipperdavid accuses them of. Pretending they weren't just because they failed doesn't convince anybody. The entire OGL debacle was all about trying to push as many people as possible onto their digital subscription service so they could employ the same microtransaction monetization strategy that video game companies are pursuing.

The fact that HappyDaze has a physical copy doesn't refute honeydipperdavid's claim. It just indicates that Hasbro wasn't so stupid as to think they were actually going to go full digital all at once. Hasbro is a big company, they're not going to have just one plan. No company gets that large without having multiple contingency plans.

So you're going with "alternative facts" then to say that just because I own it doesn't mean that "you'll never own the game" is false. Nice reasoning there.

You will certainly own the printed books that you purchased. That is simple fact. The current game, as it exists for VTT play including the patches for all the errata will be digital only. 

Quote from: Exploderwizard on October 24, 2024, 02:38:57 PMYou will certainly own the printed books that you purchased. That is simple fact. The current game, as it exists for VTT play including the patches for all the errata will be digital only. 

So let's parse that last sentence.

"The current game, as it exists for VTT play...will be digital only."

and

"The current game, as it exists for all the errata will be digital only."

The first part is a nonsense sentence. You basically said "The current game as it exists for digital only will be digital only." A Virtual Tabletop is, by definition, digital only.

The second part is very likely wrong. Errata in the past, including recent past, was issued first digitally (because that's easiest) and then later as a new print of that product was released. We have no reason to think that will change. Until it does change, there is no way to make a definition statement that it will change, particular given they ran 50% over their expected demand for the first print run so far. They also doubled down on mentioning "analog" in their forward looking statement, so we know they believe the non digital portion remains important to their bottom line.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on October 24, 2024, 02:38:57 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 23, 2024, 02:28:48 AM

Quote from: Corolinth on October 22, 2024, 12:09:13 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 22, 2024, 10:14:44 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 20, 2024, 01:02:54 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 20, 2024, 12:14:02 AM6E D&D isn't a TTRPG, its a digital tabletop.  They are selling the digital tabletop not the game.  You'll never own the game in the first place.

Are you referring to something other than the 2024 revision of the core 5e rules? Because if that's what you're calling 6E, you'd be wrong--I most certainly do own a copy of the 2024 PHB (so I "own the game") and plan on buying the other titles when available.

I get it. WotC/Hasbro is an evil corporation embracing all that is wicked in society. But fot God's sake, all the people telling easily refutable lies about it sways no one and just discredits people with legitimate complaints.

There's plenty of legitimate things to complain about with 5e (of which elements of the 2024 PHB are only some) and Hasbro's business model that making things up just feels like self-sabotage at this point.

People make two huge mistakes whenever they talk about this topic:

1) Just because Hasbro's plan failed doesn't mean it wasn't the plan.
2) Just because Hasbro's plan was bad to begin with doesn't mean it wasn't the plan.

Yes, Hasbro was trying to do some version of what honeydipperdavid accuses them of. Pretending they weren't just because they failed doesn't convince anybody. The entire OGL debacle was all about trying to push as many people as possible onto their digital subscription service so they could employ the same microtransaction monetization strategy that video game companies are pursuing.

The fact that HappyDaze has a physical copy doesn't refute honeydipperdavid's claim. It just indicates that Hasbro wasn't so stupid as to think they were actually going to go full digital all at once. Hasbro is a big company, they're not going to have just one plan. No company gets that large without having multiple contingency plans.

So you're going with "alternative facts" then to say that just because I own it doesn't mean that "you'll never own the game" is false. Nice reasoning there.

You will certainly own the printed books that you purchased. That is simple fact. The current game, as it exists for VTT play including the patches for all the errata will be digital only. 

Please clarify: do you consider the printed books to be "the game" or not? If not, how to you choose to define "the game" when speaking of 5e?