Quote from: ForgottenF on October 19, 2024, 05:35:26 PMIt's almost inevitable in anything that wants to focus on Vampires and Werewolves. Most of the lore around those monsters is from Christian cultures, and like Chris said, in their traditional manifestations they're inextricably tied in with witchcraft and Satanism. Various attempts have been made over the years to divorce the logic of vampirism from Christianity, but they always come across to me as kind of toothless and milquetoast. Trying to explain vampirism away as a blood disorder or saying that they're somehow weak to faith of any kind, regardless of the object of that faith just cheapens the monster to me.

How did people repel vampires before the Crucifixion? How did non-Christians deal with vampires? What about their other weaknesses? What even are vampires under Christian theology?

Christian-based vampirism is fine, but the concept of the evil dead long predates Christianity. It's not "cheap" outside Christianity. Ancient Sumer had stories of ekimmu and akakharu, ancient China had stories of jiangshi, ancient India had stories or pretas and vetalas...

However, and you may feel vindicated by this, all of those cultures agreed that these were the evil dead. Man-eating monsters that spread terror and suffering.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 19, 2024, 05:35:26 PMBesides, Satan is just such a fun villain, why would you not want to use him?

I don't disagree. Chill even features him as a villain under the name "The Deceiver."

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 20, 2024, 10:19:26 AMHow did people repel vampires before the Crucifixion? How did non-Christians deal with vampires?  What even are vampires under Christian theology?

So I think taking that first question with Christian assumptions, you get one of two answers, either of which has narrative potential. The first answer is that they didn't. i.e., before Christ came to redeem the world there was no power capable of staving off unholiness, darkness ruled the world, etc. The second answer would be that a non-Christian has  to fight black magic with black magic, which gives you the same kind of thematic thrust.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 20, 2024, 10:19:26 AMWhat about their other weaknesses?

Oh man, the list is endless! Garlic, salt, fire, poppy seeds, coins in the mouth, being buried at a crossroads, locking your windows... There's probably hundreds of folk remedies for vampirism.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 20, 2024, 10:19:26 AMWhat even are vampires under Christian theology?

Quite a lot of ink has been spilled on that, too. I think the conclusion Montague Summers came to was that they are the devil animating the corpse of someone who sold their soul to him in life, but you can cook up plenty of alternatives that still fit the Christian worldview.

Incidentally, if you want a pretty good summary of the folklore of vampires, I recommend his book "The Vampire in Europe" if you can get a hold of a copy.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 20, 2024, 10:19:26 AMChristian-based vampirism is fine, but the concept of the evil dead long predates Christianity. It's not "cheap" outside Christianity. Ancient Sumer had stories of ekimmu and akakharu, ancient China had stories of jiangshi, ancient India had stories or pretas and vetalas...

However, and you may feel vindicated by this, all of those cultures agreed that these were the evil dead. Man-eating monsters that spread terror and suffering.

Sure, but when people say "vampire" what they almost always mean is a derivative of the monster Victorian novelists cobbled together from Slavic and Mediterranean folklore. Post Anne Rice, there's been a noticeable trend of siting the origin of European vampires somewhere in Egypt or the Middle East, but that still kind of keeps them in a Judeo-Christian context, since it just traces them back to Old Testament times.

I'm not actually Christian myself, but I find that vampires and similar monsters are more compelling when they're not just "evil dead", but "unholy dead", and that carries a lot of weight in a Christian conception precisely because historical Christianity is so binary when it comes to God and the Devil. They get boring to me when people try to give them a pseudo-scientific or non-denominational explanation.

Regarding non-Christians and vampires... most accounts I've found mostly discuss avoidance (don't violate the taboos which attract them) and destruction while they are helpless during the day (piercing them with various objects seems common). Lacking Christian implements, the only common theme seems to be playing to certain psychological weaknesses (scattering seeds/rice/etc. that they are compelled to count so that you can flee) and that they can't stand to see their reflection so keeping mirrors around will scare them off.

Basically, they just don't have things like the Crucifix or holy water to drive them away... to borrow from Game of Thrones, for them "the night is dark and full of terrors."

In terms of what Vampires are in Catholic theology... they're mythical creatures and superstitions, no more real than dragons or green-skinned witches with the power of flight by broomstick. If you want to place them into a largely Catholic setting you have to make something up that feels consistent.

For my own version the "Master Vampire" is a witch/warlock who has made a pact with the Devil for physical immortality at the cost of their eternal soul and the necessity to feed on blood to maintain their youth.

Some Masters choose to create servant vampires through a curse delivered with their bite. The curse grants minor vampiric powers, a hunger for blood and the temptation towards sin. Indulging their urges for blood and vice increases their power at cost to their soul until it is finally lost entirely. Lacking a soul, the body dies and the now forever damned soul rises as a vampire in service to their master.

Only acts of virtue and repentance can keep the curse from progressing... and is the struggle for PCs that fall under the category of The Cursed. Only destroying the vampire who cursed you will free you from the curse (dying before your soul is lost will save it, but that's not terribly useful for continuing to play the PC... just consolation for the player and PC's friends/family).

The other reason they're that is because Satan is both an excellent villain (though being pure spirit is not someone you can fight physically... one must settle with thwarting his schemes) and an excellent common origin for monsters... who can basically be divided into potentially saveable (those still living) and the eternally damned (those who are now undead... ancient crones, elder werewolves, full vampires, etc.).

It's easy to have a coherent cosmology when you don't have a bunch of competing mythologies. The Devil is older than Man and has influenced all cultures throughout history. His demons presented themselves as pagan gods granting power and good fortune to those who would worship and sacrifice to them and follow their commands (typically to mercilessly conquer, enslave, rape and murder those who would not bow to their faith).

Historically, some demons may play the role of "good" deities while others play the monsters to drive people into worship of them instead of seeking the Truth. Some superstitious wards against evil may just be play acting by monsters in on the larger con.

Alternately, there is also a belief in Catholicism that, to the extent there is something good and true in other faiths, that goodness and truth comes from God laying out paths that point to Him for the earnest seekers of Truth.

The ideal is to get onto the main road that is the Catholic faith, but for those lost far from that road, a game trail is better than nothing and, with God's grace, might get one close enough that God can step in to carry the earnest seeker the rest of the way Home.

So too in an urban fantasy based off Catholic theology, one could say that those things used by non-Christians as remedies and wards against supernatural evil are things placed by a loving God to offer some protection to them in absence of better options.

My thinking on this for my game is that the simpler the ward, the more likely that it was placed by God (ex. Salt and silver are ancient symbols of purity so are probably genuine counters to the supernatural woven into them by God at the creation of the world... silver as the common backing of a mirror also explains the weakness to their reflections... which may not extend to many modern mirrors using other materials for the reflective surface).

By contrast, the more ridiculous or humiliating or sinful in other ways the method is (dressing in ridiculous fashion, inscribing prayers to false gods on doorways, etc.) the more likely it is the result of monsters play acting (meaning those fail utterly the moment play acting ceases to be useful to their plans... noteworthy in Dracula is that the Cross doesn't work to counter vampires; only a Crucifix will truly work).

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 20, 2024, 01:27:37 PMMy thinking on this for my game is that the simpler the ward, the more likely that it was placed by God (ex. Salt and silver are ancient symbols of purity so are probably genuine counters to the supernatural woven into them by God at the creation of the world... silver as the common backing of a mirror also explains the weakness to their reflections... which may not extend to many modern mirrors using other materials for the reflective surface).

Another direction on the reflection thing is to play into the revulsion at what they have become (kind of a "Picture of Dorian Gray" thing).  They cannot stand to see the evil/unholiness/decay that their reflection shows, so that it becomes a revulsion thing as opposed to a mystical one.  It still fits with the religious theme, too (especially as a revulsion against the alienation from God by the damned).

Neato. The religious underpinnings sound fascinating when explained like that. So much more sensible and coherent than whatever the mall goths were smoking. I think your game concept would be a nice change of pace after so much ignorant secular nonsense. Good luck!

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 20, 2024, 02:59:41 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 20, 2024, 01:27:37 PMMy thinking on this for my game is that the simpler the ward, the more likely that it was placed by God (ex. Salt and silver are ancient symbols of purity so are probably genuine counters to the supernatural woven into them by God at the creation of the world... silver as the common backing of a mirror also explains the weakness to their reflections... which may not extend to many modern mirrors using other materials for the reflective surface).

Another direction on the reflection thing is to play into the revulsion at what they have become (kind of a "Picture of Dorian Gray" thing).  They cannot stand to see the evil/unholiness/decay that their reflection shows, so that it becomes a revulsion thing as opposed to a mystical one.  It still fits with the religious theme, too (especially as a revulsion against the alienation from God by the damned).

That is an excellent suggestion as, upon further research, historically (as in until the 19th century) few mirrors were silver (silver tarnishes to unreflective black rather quickly). Most were bronze or polished stone or polished steel and none were nearly as good as the modern mirrors (the phrase "I see as though through a mirror, darkly" is in reference to the poor quality of reflected images compared to looking at something directly).

Given the plethora of ancient materials used, making the effect genuine due to revulsion at seeing oneself makes more sense than something intrinsic to the material a mirror is made from and the degree to which it is effective depends on how corrupted the entity is.

The Cursed may be put off by the signs of the curse taking hold, but it's not enough to actually drive them back... those who have become truly undead though are hideous both to themselves and those with the ability to perceive true forms (ex. a common trait of dhampirs in folklore was being able to see invisible and disguised vampires) and their ability to withstand the sight of themselves might require some test of resolve/mental fortitude (the idea being that lesser counters can sometimes be overcome because they are imperfect).

The other useful element there from an associated mechanics sense is that their reflection can give a Cursed PC a rough gauge of their corruption after they've given in to sin and whether acts of virtue and penance are reversing what has been lost to sin (Catholicism has whole sections of dogma about habitual sin and that, so long as you're trying to avoid the repetition, falling back into a habitual sin doesn't make it unforgivable, just something you need to keep working on). Basically, having a corruption track the player is aware of is less of a metagame element if there's an in-character element that can be observed.

This could also be why the Children archetype (dhampirs, cambions, changelings, etc.) do NOT have this problem (they don't have the traditional weaknesses of their monstrous half, but still have most of the human frailties the monster lacks) and that would be because they are the result of God choosing to create something good out of evil; a person who, by God's grace, can turn the Devil's own gifts against his Damned. They don't show signs of corruption in mirrors because they are what God created them to be.

I remember seeing something like that in the BBC Netflix Dracula show a few years back. Mirrors (and livestreams on cameras) showed a vampire what they truly looked like inside. Dracula, regardless of the youth he drained, always looked like a terrible old man.

Neato.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 21, 2024, 08:23:17 AMI remember seeing something like that in the BBC Netflix Dracula show a few years back. Mirrors (and livestreams on cameras) showed a vampire what they truly looked like inside. Dracula, regardless of the youth he drained, always looked like a terrible old man.

Neato.

Not entirely familiar with that iteration, but yeah, it's really only the supernaturally attuned who see the vampire as it truly is. Video cameras and reflective surfaces are just far too common in the modern world for any sort of masquerade to exist (and if you want the setting to even slightly resemble the real world the monsters need to be hidden) if the vampire's true form could be exposed because someone happens to be recording something where a vampire is present on their smart phone and uploads it to TikTok.

I guess it somewhat depends on how you see the monsters.

If they're liminal beings hiding in the shadows on the edges of human life and not participating in it then their ugliness being exposed by any mirror or camera would work... the monsters hide in sewers and abandoned buildings and work through mind controlling people to perform tasks out in the world.

If they're instead beings of power and influence then they shouldn't have more than some odd habits or hints (see the recurring joke that Mark Zuckerberg is actually one the lizard men whose disguise isn't very good) in appearing on camera and only supernatural sight sees the truth.

The latter makes more sense if the common origin is deals with the Devil. Who's going to sell their soul if everyone will see them as hideous?

One element that might be interesting is if being able to perceive their true forms is related to faith (and in this the non-Christian earnest seeker counts) so that the monsters once had to exist on the fringes of a much more faithful world, but as secularism spread and faith waned in the populace below some critical threshold the ability to see evil for what it is was lost.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 21, 2024, 09:10:01 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 21, 2024, 08:23:17 AMI remember seeing something like that in the BBC Netflix Dracula show a few years back. Mirrors (and livestreams on cameras) showed a vampire what they truly looked like inside. Dracula, regardless of the youth he drained, always looked like a terrible old man.

Neato.

Not entirely familiar with that iteration, but yeah, it's really only the supernaturally attuned who see the vampire as it truly is. Video cameras and reflective surfaces are just far too common in the modern world for any sort of masquerade to exist (and if you want the setting to even slightly resemble the real world the monsters need to be hidden) if the vampire's true form could be exposed because someone happens to be recording something where a vampire is present on their smart phone and uploads it to TikTok.

Only the vampire sees the truth in the show. It works exactly like how you described your revulsion mechanism

Another factor that I think WoD did rather well and is worth considering how to include similar elements is that the main monsters for each book tended to have a slew of ancillary supernatural elements/creatures built into them.

It wasn't just Mages, you had constructs (from Frankenstein's monster to golems to HIT Marks), bygones (dragons, mermaids and other fantastical creatures), familiars and spirits filling in the void.

Vampire had ghouls and revenants (human and animal), ghosts/zombies (via necromancy), mutated beasts and men (via Vicissitude and some Nosferatu rituals), demons (via the Baali), gargoyles (bloodline), dhampirs (supplement), and hedge magic, psychics and true faith (via Hunters Hunted supplement) all floating around in the setting even without adding the other splats. Heck, mummies were originally a Vampire splat as well (first edition Mummy came out about the same time as WtA did).

That wealth of ancillary supernatural elements that fit into the established cosmology of the setting really helped flesh out the world in a way many other vampire games don't bother to.

So, in terms of an urban fantasy setting, it's worth considering what the "ancillary" stuff looks like. What is real, what's actually just a myth, and what's real but not what most think it is?

For example, I'm going with the idea that Fae and aliens are actually the same supernatural phenomenon. One of the Cursed types will be the Alien/Fae abductee (on thinking about it, not all curses need to end with transformation into one of the creatures... that may just apply to certain types, some curses just have some benefit along with their drawbacks... ex. Alien probing leaves you with psychic powers, migraines and nose bleeds). Similarly, half-alien/fae will be a type of the Children archetype with the actual Fae probably being a spirit (probably the restless dead that can't be directly fought except by engaging with it via "fairy tale logic" that resolves it's restlessness).*

Now, going hunter-based and being able to fold most of the intelligent human-adjacent monsters into demonic pacts covers a lot of ground. Allowing for curses and part-monster children covers even more. But certain elements from those WoD were added for good narrative reasons. The villain needs some fanatical stronger than mere mortal lieutenants that don't share their weaknesses (if they all explode in sunlight then one trick solves the whole conflict)... so, Ghouls (who are also meant to reflect Renfeld) and the blood bond that controls them were added.

From my perspective as well, if you're aiming at having the PCs be generally heroic, needing to kill a bunch of mind-whammied human dupes to get to the actual villain really dampens the heroism. That's where willing cultists and lesser monsters (ex. a necromancer's zombies) feels a lot better to overcome.

Thus, I see the need for minion-tier supernatural elements that the Damned can call upon to fill in the gaps.

* Yet another reason to go with a Catholic foundation is that we believe in ghosts. We have rules about lay people interacting with them because there's no way to tell if they're being truthful and could be demons or a damned soul trying to lead you into sin, but also have experts trained in evaluating and dealing with them. One case a priest who specialized in this shared with us involved a haunting where a priest had died. Upon investigating the priest discovered the haunting elements were focused on drawing attention to a desk where there was found a list that the departed priest had made of intentions he had promised to say masses for, but had died before saying them. Once they had been given out and said by other priests the haunting ceased entirely.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 21, 2024, 11:39:13 AMThat wealth of ancillary supernatural elements that fit into the established cosmology of the setting really helped flesh out the world in a way many other vampire games don't bother to.

You mean having a monster manual like D&D? I assumed that was something you did automatically whenever you wrote urban fantasy.

Also, what other vampire games are there? Particularly ones that don't bother with bestiaries? Not counting one off indie games like Feed or Vampire City, urban fantasy games like Nephilim, Nightlife, Nightbane, Everlasting, WitchCraft, etc. usually include bestiaries or at least build-a-beast chapters.

In Nephilim, the vampire splat (only published in France) could rely on ghosts, zombies, "living dead" (people corrupted with black magic), and an assortment of "entities" summoned from the lower astral planes made of human fears and nightmares. Nightlife had generic renfields for all character types, zombie dogs, etc. Everlasting's vampires had several types of minions: "drones" who were just humans hypnotized to serve a while, "dhampirs" who could learn powers but could walk in sunlight (think half-vampires from The Lost Boys), and weaker vampire minions; You could even turn animals into drones, dhampirs or vampires.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 21, 2024, 11:39:13 AMFor example, I'm going with the idea that Fae and aliens are actually the same supernatural phenomenon.

I saw that in Changeling: The Lost too. Later on they invented a separate "deviant" character type to handle alien abductees and other scifi stuff, but it was never as interesting because the concept was a hyper vague mess that covered everything from RoboCop to Eleven from Stranger Things.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 21, 2024, 11:39:13 AMThus, I see the need for minion-tier supernatural elements that the Damned can call upon to fill in the gaps.

Again, neato.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 18, 2024, 07:18:28 AMTenbones, All you seem to be saying here is that WoD is generic, derivative and uninspired.

Maybe I should use Gumshoe as a basis for an urban fantasy detective game?

Gumshoe is an idiot trying to "fix" a problem that did not exist.

You know what could do Dresden Files and all that now that think of it?

Older editions of Call of Cthulhu. Especially with the Dreamlands expansions.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 19, 2024, 05:35:26 PMBlade movies with them, movies which were themselves highly derivative of WoD.

Blade at least is older than the Ann Rice books. The movies though barely scratch the surface.

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2024, 09:32:57 PMBlade at least is older than the Ann Rice books. The movies though barely scratch the surface.

Blade was changed quite a bit from the original version to the one that was in the Wesley Snipes movie.

Quote from: yosemitemike on October 21, 2024, 09:47:04 PM

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2024, 09:32:57 PMBlade at least is older than the Ann Rice books. The movies though barely scratch the surface.

Blade was changed quite a bit from the original version to the one that was in the Wesley Snipes movie.

That is a huge understatement.

And in the 90s saw a huge retooling along with several other supernatural themed superheroes and eventually teamed up into Midnight Sons in the early 90s. I had the early issues and it had a strong mystery of the week feel to it with an underlying interconnection with the Darkhold.

Massively more broad in variety of creatures compared to the Blade movie's focus on just vampires.