Mechanics matter. But I think (especially for WoD urban-fantasy stuff) that setting matters more.

I don't know anyone that actually liked the WoD dice-pool system. It was very easy to manipulate. The math behind it was horrible. But we made it work.

What we liked was the fact that we got to jump into an Anne Rice world with cool not-Anne Rice conceits. The whole "History is a Lie" thing appealed to the fact that your characters were "in the conspiracy - you're now in the know!". Clans working under a large umbrella within the conspiracy appealed to the inclusivity with built-in friction with other Clans which promoted RP opportunities already cooked into the pseudo-history of the setting. This appeals instantly to our tribal instincts. The more sub-division that they dug into, the more we got pulled into it. Inter-Clan politics was just as interesting as Intra-Clan history.

Then, *finally* we had a game that centered first and foremost around politics - which could be engaged in as the players see fit, even when trying not to engage in them. The political nature of Vampire appealed to people that weren't even into politics because the "super-hero monster" vibe allowed for you to fight against the Real Evil(tm) while you were still a monster. So it let everyone have a baby-martyr complex... oooo the delicious annnngst.

Of course... for those of us that didn't give a shit about the angst... We could go for the pure power-trip and roll Sabbat. Which had its own fun baggage by implication as well as overt conceit.

That's a tall order to fill. It's one of the reasons "just being a Vampire" isn't particularly appealing without some cool conceits of "why". I'm not sure that it can even be recaptured. WoD didn't do anything but deepen and recontextualize Anne Rice (we're free to argue here, as I'm sure Lumley fans would have a lot to say) - the fact is the appeal should be subtle without throwing out the baby in the bathwater. Can it be done? I think so. I haven't given it enough thought.

The idea of  Cain being the first Vampire, for instance, is a solid myth. The curse has to be commensurate to the crime - and Cain fits wonderfully. Of course in Rice it was some Egyptian sorcery highjinks which let's face it, barely passes muster (binding a spirit into a person who suddenly cannibalizes people? Not bad. Could be better). I thought the NWoD of Longinus being the progenitor is a good one too. But it implies that Vampires are no older than that. There is something about giving vampires and supernatural monsters common to us a history that goes into antiquity a very cool appeal.

Marvel Comics vampires are traced back to Atlantis - and beyond (they come from the Darkhold which was written by Cthon and elder god). And that's COOL! Hence you see references to Vampires in their lore going into Conan references within their various books.

So while I have no interest in running the WoD system - I'm equally interested in reimaging a new cosmology, and using a different system - which means a new game. But the cosmology part is where the rubber hits the road for me.

One conceit I saw in Everlasting is that anyone who commits sufficient atrocities spontaneously becomes a vampire patient zero. Cain never became one because one murder isn't enough, but Dracula and Bathory did. Pretty much every historical figure with sufficient atrocity under their belt—King Leopold II, Hernando Cortez, Ivan the Terrible, Giles de Rais, etc—is fair game as a potential patient zero.

Also, the token Chinese vampire bloodline are composed of computer nerds who know kung fu and carry around archaic Chinese swords.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 14, 2024, 04:04:55 PMOne conceit I saw in Everlasting is that anyone who commits sufficient atrocities spontaneously becomes a vampire patient zero. Cain never became one because one murder isn't enough, but Dracula and Bathory did. Pretty much every historical figure with sufficient atrocity under their belt—King Leopold II, Hernando Cortez, Ivan the Terrible, Giles de Rais, etc—is fair game as a potential patient zero.

I *like* this idea nested within a larger cosmological constant. However, given the realities of history, I assume that the original WoD crew understood this as well. Their solution of course was that all of history itself was a fiction created largely by the vampires themselves (which they unwound more as they added more splats).

But in the situation Everlast is suggesting, there would likely have been a *lot* of vampire-0's. Which then requires an explanation of why they have never proliferated - whether by organized hunters (Inquisition etc.) Again the elegant solution to this is WoD's "Masquerade". A recapitulation of the RP aspect with stakes in playing a vampire.

Whether intentional or not, it's an elegant solution. I could totally see the Everlasting concept work, but I'd want more meat on the bone (there might be, as I'm not as familiar with it). What else is cool about the setting?

I think it's a great starting point for sure.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 14, 2024, 04:04:55 PMAlso, the token Chinese vampire bloodline are composed of computer nerds who know kung fu and carry around archaic Chinese swords.

Ugh. The whole Kuei-jin thing was a missed opportunity and horribly executed imo within WoD. I LIKE the idea of Asian Clans, but due to the Judeo-Christian assumptions of Vampire (specifically), this made it weird.

Now, using Cain as a metaphor for the Devourer Wyrm - made a LOT of sense. But it also both made the Kuei-jin both weirder from the Vampire perspective but much more relatable from the Werewolf camp.

I think the Everlasting concept works strong thematically for a rework of these ideas.

Quote from: tenbones on October 14, 2024, 05:21:20 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 14, 2024, 04:04:55 PMOne conceit I saw in Everlasting is that anyone who commits sufficient atrocities spontaneously becomes a vampire patient zero. Cain never became one because one murder isn't enough, but Dracula and Bathory did. Pretty much every historical figure with sufficient atrocity under their belt—King Leopold II, Hernando Cortez, Ivan the Terrible, Giles de Rais, etc—is fair game as a potential patient zero.

I *like* this idea nested within a larger cosmological constant. However, given the realities of history, I assume that the original WoD crew understood this as well. Their solution of course was that all of history itself was a fiction created largely by the vampires themselves (which they unwound more as they added more splats).

But in the situation Everlast is suggesting, there would likely have been a *lot* of vampire-0's. Which then requires an explanation of why they have never proliferated - whether by organized hunters (Inquisition etc.) Again the elegant solution to this is WoD's "Masquerade". A recapitulation of the RP aspect with stakes in playing a vampire.

Whether intentional or not, it's an elegant solution. I could totally see the Everlasting concept work, but I'd want more meat on the bone (there might be, as I'm not as familiar with it). What else is cool about the setting?

I think it's a great starting point for sure.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 14, 2024, 04:04:55 PMAlso, the token Chinese vampire bloodline are composed of computer nerds who know kung fu and carry around archaic Chinese swords.

Ugh. The whole Kuei-jin thing was a missed opportunity and horribly executed imo within WoD. I LIKE the idea of Asian Clans, but due to the Judeo-Christian assumptions of Vampire (specifically), this made it weird.

Now, using Cain as a metaphor for the Devourer Wyrm - made a LOT of sense. But it also both made the Kuei-jin both weirder from the Vampire perspective but much more relatable from the Werewolf camp.

I think the Everlasting concept works strong thematically for a rework of these ideas.

Yeah, while only a dozen bloodlines are presented, more are mentioned in passing, and it suggests that there may be hundreds descended from history's most prolific killers. Bloodlines can also be wiped out: kill the founder and the bloodline will go with him unless members raised enough blood-potency to survive it.

Everlasting isn't specifically Judeo-Christian, but it does make several Judeo-Christian concepts true in its cosmology. For example, there are Christian-style angels, but in-universe they claim not to be specifically Christian.

You can read a review here: https://writeups.letsyouandhimfight.com/halloween-jack/the-everlasting-book-of-the-unliving/

Long story short, a guy who previously wrote for White Wolf wrote it in response to perceived problems with their design. It has a unified cosmology, allows cross-splat play, and uses unified rules for superpowers and sorcery. It was basically new world of darkness before that was a thing. It's also not bleak af: the 13 PC splats include mythic heroes, good angels, grail questers, spiritual warriors, vigilante gargoyles and Tolkien-style elves and dwarves.

Sweet. I'll check it out!

As an aside... I've been wondering when/why there aren't more WoD ala Dark Ages games out there? Where you're playing the Vampire/Werewolf/etc. but set in a medieval fantasy setting? No interest?

I'm toying around with aspects of that in this project I'm working on - but it's not a dedicated theme of the setting. Just a regional thing.

Quote from: tenbones on October 15, 2024, 03:26:51 PMSweet. I'll check it out!

As an aside... I've been wondering when/why there aren't more WoD ala Dark Ages games out there? Where you're playing the Vampire/Werewolf/etc. but set in a medieval fantasy setting? No interest?

I'm toying around with aspects of that in this project I'm working on - but it's not a dedicated theme of the setting. Just a regional thing.

There's numerous supplements for playing vampires, playing lycanthropes, and playing in literal medieval Europe using D&D rules. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of demand for those kinds of supplements, much less a campaign setting where you play magical creatures living in medieval Earth. I remember that Ubik worked on a game like that in the mid 2000s, Nephilim: Secret, but it was canceled.

You can say the same thing about pretty every genre and pitch you could think of. It's probably because gamers are trained early on to have a taste for certain kinds of games, to conform to whatever is currently popular when they get into the hobby, and then never leave their comfort zone for the rest of their lives. I've seen numerous creative game concepts that withered on the vine because they weren't able to compete with the first movers that had already colonized the existing niches, like D&D, Cyberpunk 2020, Shadowrun, Battletech, Call of Cthulhu, etc.

I find it very frustrating. Ttrpgs run on the most powerful computer there is, the human imagination, but gamers are too afraid to leave their comfort zone and actually use that imagination. So interesting ideas are constantly created, tossed in the trash, the existing niches are mined out and driven into the ground, and the hobby remains stagnant.

On the other hand, I'm completely burnt out on medieval fantasy because it's so oversaturated. I've read supplements that let you play as levitating swords, giant sapient spiders... I've seen bestiaries with entries for non-evil holy undead, strife elementals, and at least three different cenobite expies. When people aren't copying LotR, they're in a contest to write the most bizarre stuff to stand out. It's long ago gotten exhausting.

I only wish other genres were even a fraction as diverse and creative.

Quote from: tenbones on October 14, 2024, 01:06:26 PMThen, *finally* we had a game that centered first and foremost around politics - which could be engaged in as the players see fit, even when trying not to engage in them. The political nature of Vampire appealed to people that weren't even into politics because the "super-hero monster" vibe allowed for you to fight against the Real Evil(tm) while you were still a monster. So it let everyone have a baby-martyr complex... oooo the delicious annnngst.

I think this is one of Vampire's biggest draws. It was for the most part, alot more about interaction and social dynamics than combat.

It tickles the same interests as Call of Cthulhu did before it for RPGing that was not as combat heavy as many perceived D&D and its knock-offs to be. And what D&D leaned into heavily for a while which did not help.

And it is one of the few RPGs that can be run as a LARP without the hassles of extensive props and combat procedures which D&D still has yet to ever impliment.

Quote from: tenbones on October 14, 2024, 05:21:20 PMUgh. The whole Kuei-jin thing was a missed opportunity and horribly executed imo within WoD. I LIKE the idea of Asian Clans, but due to the Judeo-Christian assumptions of Vampire (specifically), this made it weird.

Now, using Cain as a metaphor for the Devourer Wyrm - made a LOT of sense. But it also both made the Kuei-jin both weirder from the Vampire perspective but much more relatable from the Werewolf camp.

I think the Everlasting concept works strong thematically for a rework of these ideas.

I had 2 of the "East" books. The Werewolf one and think either the Vampire or Wraith one. Probably the Wraith one if that ever saw print. Have not looked at anything WW aside from Aberrant in 20+ years.

It worked. But it was a quirky sort of works. Personally there was something about the art style that never clicked with me.

Hilariously what put me off the Shapechangers of the East book was yet another in the interminable Coyote inserts gag which WW had to slip into what felt like every damn Werewolf book.

Something I noticed with the later WW books is a marked deterioration in direction and cohesion, and WW books were always weak on cohesion to begin with. You see it even in Aberrant.

Any thoughts on Undying? I recently picked this up.

I wish there was a universal engine for playing urban fantasy, like how D&D lets you play medieval fantasy. I don't give a flying crap about failed microfiction and exposition dumps pretending to be a game. I don't like tribalistic nutjobs who make fiction into their effing religion. I just want to play games and make stuff up.

I don't know why there isn't an OSR-like movement for urban fantasy. Is the genre just not popular enough to support that?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 17, 2024, 08:41:32 AMI don't know why there isn't an OSR-like movement for urban fantasy. Is the genre just not popular enough to support that?

I'm going to say it probably isn't popular enough to support it.

D&D isn't just the 800lb. gorilla, its the blue whale of RPGs. Even the OSR movement is just a spin-off of the older editions and so can largely recruit from people coming off WotC D&D.

The only thing comparable in the urban fantasy sphere is VtM and it basically pulled a D&D 4E before there was a D&D 4E in creating a widely division new edition (NWoD) that divided its fanbase... only there wasn't an OGL in place for someone to build a retroclone of the old material (which was already 90% copyrighted and trademarked fluff or hung off that fluff) so instead of getting a strong alternative in a Pathfinder-like competitor and budding OSR-like movement the fans who didn't want the new edition mostly just dissolved, playing independent home games with older books or finding new systems or just leaving the hobby entirely.

Then the WoD got a bonafide miracle resurrection with Vampire 20th, only for the people in charge of the IP to crap the bed again with the massively divisive V5 that split the fanbase again.

The OSR is a viable thing, but it wouldn't have been without the massive pool of D&D players to pull from and an OGL SRD to make retrocloning the older systems comparatively painless and low-risk (no "They Sue Regularly" to worry about).

Urban Fantasy has never had that... and lingers far behind D&D-style fantasy as a result.

* * * *

Another factor is that D&D style fantasy is much easier for new players to grok because you have specific classes. Not sure what to play? Pick a class and try it; most of your choices are made for you.

Virtually every modern-setting RPG, including Urban Fantasy, instead opts for a classless system that offers all the flexibility you need to play virtually anyone in the modern world, but robs the new player of easy archetypes to latch onto. One of the things WoD did well was, even if the mechanical effect was nearly non-existent, it made sure to have Clans, Tribes, Traditions, etc. to create a sort of archetype for new players within the splat.

As much as I'm loathe to say it, to get something like an OSR-ish Urban Fantasy system with enough gravity to get new players into it, you'd probably need to build it as a class/level system with customization options.

It's one reason why, regardless of the final mechanics, I started naming specific Hunter concepts... Called, Chosen, Cursed, and Children function as a high-level archetype and direction for building a character out of. Subclasses like Cambion, Dhampir, Changeling, Nephilim, etc. could be attached as specific builds.

Unfortunately, that's also not the sort of system most people coming from other Urban Fantasy systems would be interested in... its too restrictive and too much like D&D.

D&D has been able to leverage the popularity of anime, manga, and video games to draw in newer players.

Urban fantasy went Anne Rice -> vampire hunter chick who banged werewolves -> sparkle vampire high school drama.

Urban fantasy is a romance subgenre for women.

You can tell me all about how it's totally something else and you can do so much more with it, or how there's all this great urban fantasy out there, but all I see is bodice-ripper novels and TV shows with soap opera plots. Let's be honest, even back in the 90s, most guys who were into urban fantasy were really just hoping to bang a goth chick.

It's not that urban fantasy isn't popular, it's just not very popular among people who are into tabletop gaming. Most of those goth chicks from back in the day are wine moms with radical feminist politics today.

tl;dr - There is an OSR-like movement for urban fantasy, it's called "Powered by the Apocalypse."

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 17, 2024, 11:34:38 AMUrban Fantasy has never had that... and lingers far behind D&D-style fantasy as a result.

Another key difference is that WoD was always about its dense lore and that alienates new players and people who don't care about lore. "You're playing your character wrong! Shun the heretic!" D&D, even CoC, are their own genres with a multitude of settings. Nobody expects players to memorize the history of Faerun to be a true fan. Many groups don't even play in Faerun. D&D has decades of lore, sure, but nobody's restricted by it.

You can write fantasy supplements and not have to worry about adhering to canon. There are countless books released under OGL or DM's guild licenses. Whereas the fan books on Storyteller's Vault are all expected to adhere to canon or be shunned as heretics. It's even more restrictive than fanfiction.

You wanna play, I don't know, werewolves who infect new werewolves via bite? Unless you play D&D, you're fucked. When it comes to urban fantasy, your only option is hereditary neopagan treehugging dogfucking incestuous alphabet cannibal psychopaths. That's really fucking stupid.

Quote from: Corolinth on October 17, 2024, 12:52:57 PMtl;dr - There is an OSR-like movement for urban fantasy, it's called "Powered by the Apocalypse."

Ugh. I'm not trying to sound sexist here, but can't we make a new genre like urban fantasy that appeals to the male demographic? How can we market urban fantasy to general tabletop gamers?

Quote from: Corolinth on October 17, 2024, 12:52:57 PMIt's not that urban fantasy isn't popular, it's just not very popular among people who are into tabletop gaming. Most of those goth chicks from back in the day are wine moms with radical feminist politics today.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 17, 2024, 01:17:24 PMUgh. I'm not trying to sound sexist here, but can't we make a new genre like urban fantasy that appeals to the male demographic? How can we market urban fantasy to general tabletop gamers?

There's the Larry Correia (Monster Hunter International) segment of the Urban Fantasy market which has, by dint of not being far left, been lumped into the "extremist right" category for daring to appeal to men and traditional values.

As noted by the name of Correia's series, the focus of that genre is explicitly humans who hunt down evil monsters and the main reason you don't see it in the mainstream much is because mainstream media is wholly controlled by Childless Cat Ladies and their allies (including Marxist wine moms).

Which is also the reason why I'm going with the "Hunters of the Damned" angle vs. "play the monster" angle; that is the part of the genre that appeals to the broadest tabletop gaming market.

It's basically D&D with guns, katanas, fast cars, military hardware, and even potentially some sci-fi (cybernetics and bio-mods) layered on top depending on the specifics the monster hunter setting you design.

For similar reasons, the games I'm interesting in working on first are focused on investigating cryptids, conspiracies, etc. from the perspective of PCs who are human. At most they have a little extra, like being the Slayer, the Charmed Ones, the Son of Satan (but working for Good), the Necroscope, half-alien, whatever. In the vein of Conspiracy X, Bureau 13, Tabloid!, Dark•Matter, Chill, Hunter: The Vigil, Necroscope, basically every game that isn't affiliated with the Cthulhu mythos.

After that my go-to choice is something like Nightbane, where you play monsters with souls that valiantly fight against their demonic kin.

But ultimately, I still want do stuff in the vein of Nightlife, WitchCraft, Everlasting, Fireborn, Nephilim, Invisible War, War of Ages, whatever, where you play as outright magical beings who do stuff. It doesn't have to be villainous. Everlasting lets you play as angels, mythic heroes, grail questers, etc.

I miss the days when writers just made stuff up because they thought it would be a cool idea for a writeup. Monsters of the week, magic objects of the week, magic places of the week, splats of the week... It was hit or miss, but at least they tried.

I feel like ever since the Great Recession hit, tabletop gamers have lost all passion and just go through the motions trying to recreate their nostalgic glory days from the 80s and 90s before losing interest and leaving the hobby. There are new creators making new stuff all the time and selling it on drivethrurpg by the truckload, but none of its leaves an impression. It's just content that comes, goes, and is immediately forgotten.