Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 07:58:20 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 04, 2024, 07:22:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 07:06:02 PMThe problem is that -- as Ratman_tf points out -- the prequel-era Jedi are central to the canon at this point. Ignoring them isn't like ignoring The Crystal Star or other EU works, especially as the prequels have influenced so many later works. 

I'd personally be happy if I could go back and just set a game in Star Wars universe before the prequels came out - maybe including some selection of EU comics or novels, but at this point, that seems like an even bigger ask than my far-future or fringe-galaxy setting ideas.

Then do that.

A lot of what happened in the prequels, especially with the Jedi, would both not be common knowledge for most player characters and be deliberately covered up by the Empire's propaganda narrative. Almost 20 years have passed in the Star Wars universe since the prequels ended and the original trilogy begins, that is close to a generation of rewriting history by the Empire.

The characters might not know it, but the players certainly would.

I feel like it would be dissonant for current-day players to see, say, husband-and-wife Jedi masters like Luke and Mara Jade. But I guess you're saying you'd prefer that (ignoring prequel continuity) compared to a far-future or fringe-galaxy setting where there aren't canonical Jedi. Is that right?

It seemed to me that it was better to make a clear-cut break, rather than outright clashing with canon. Hmm...

See, that's just it. The players may say that it clashes with canon, but it doesn't to the characters who only know what the Empire has told them. History being written by the victors means that the Empire's lies are considered truth until contradicted somehow and the whole structure of COMPNOR is to make sure that the lies are what is taught in schools, written of in history books, compiled in encyclopedias, portrayed in media, and proclaimed in the NewsNets.

If the players are having some cognitive dissonance about what happened in the prequels and how the Empire officially portrays events - use that in game. You could have a pretty good campaign based around finding out and proving what happened in the prequels because it is a direct attack on the basis of the Empire.

Think about what you could do with that approach.

Should you run official Star Wars, or a home brew, copycat universe that is somewhat similar? 

I have no issue either way. 

When I do run Star Wars, I pick a different time point to avoid the movies and Disney+ shows.  I want my players to have the center stage.  In fact, I'm running my son thru a Jedi campaign right now, set in the episode 1.5 time period when Anakin is just a Padawan, and hasn't even been a background character.  Yoda has made an appearance.  He is the current Jedi Master after all. 

However, I would totally be willing to make my own version of Star Wars.  I sort have a skeleton of a setting already.  It's a universe with its own Clone War.  In this universe, cloning is seen as immoral, especially by psychics who know they have human feelings.  The good guy army is droid based, as their egalitarianism made the draft illegal a long time ago.  Psychics are not usually randomly born.  Instead, they can turn anyone into a level-1 psychic, but it costs them one of their own levels to do so.

I did start that other thread as an experiment to see what others want if the were to create a Jedi equivalent character.  The fact it turned out to be a tech based powerhouse was interesting.  I liked it, but that's another, another universe to quote Spider-Gwen.  In a copycat universe, see above.

Quote from: Mishihari on October 04, 2024, 04:27:05 PMThis just popped into my head:  set the game "much longer ago, in a galaxy far, far away"  There are a many proto-Jedi orders competing for talented recruits and influence.  Two of them are the Temple and the Sith.  Guess who wins?  Part of the fun of this is that the ancient history of the Star Wars setting is kind of a mystery that people are curious about.  This way you get to find out what happened, or at least your own version of it.

Interesting.

As a question here... You say two of them are "the Temple" and "the Sith". But I want to get away from portraying the prequel Jedi -- including a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi.

Would this "early days" setup work for you if none of the factions were a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi? i.e. They're all different?

That's what I was planning for my far-future Force sects. There's a bunch of lore about the long history of the Jedi - most of it now based on prequel-era assumptions. I feel like it would be easier for Star Wars fans to accept differences from lore if it was in a projected future than in the distant past.

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2024, 02:59:02 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on October 04, 2024, 04:27:05 PMThis just popped into my head:  set the game "much longer ago, in a galaxy far, far away"  There are a many proto-Jedi orders competing for talented recruits and influence.  Two of them are the Temple and the Sith.  Guess who wins?  Part of the fun of this is that the ancient history of the Star Wars setting is kind of a mystery that people are curious about.  This way you get to find out what happened, or at least your own version of it.

Interesting.

As a question here... You say two of them are "the Temple" and "the Sith". But I want to get away from portraying the prequel Jedi -- including a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi.

Would this "early days" setup work for you if none of the factions were a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi? i.e. They're all different?

That's what I was planning for my far-future Force sects. There's a bunch of lore about the long history of the Jedi - most of it now based on prequel-era assumptions. I feel like it would be easier for Star Wars fans to accept differences from lore if it was in a projected future than in the distant past.

For a good source of material for your Jedi Resurgence setting there is the Disney Plus anime series called Star Wars Visions.  Specifically, the Ninth Jedi episode from season 1. 

Now, it's not clear if this episode is in the past or future, but most assume it's the future because the Jedi are well known and extinct. 

For everyone who hasn't seen it, a minor nobleman from the planet Hi Izlan in the outer rim is apparently trying to restart the Jedi Order to take on the Sith who rule the galaxy. Unlike A New Hope, here the Jedi are not almost extinct, but actually are extinct and have been for some time.

It's clear that things have changed as Lightsabers, and how to build them is a major plot point.  Even when they're re-introduced during the episode, they're not really the same as the sabers we're used to.  It's easily explained away since they're built by people who don't know how real sabers were made.

I'm being a bit cautious about the story.  I want people to watch it without spoilers.  Go watch it.  It's damn good. 

However, of any media that Disney Star Wars has created, this single episode is the one everyone seems to want made into an actual movie or TV series.

As a setting for an RPG, the Ninth Jedi is a great choice.  As I mentioned, even established tropes can be changed and explained away because it's a new Jedi Order 2.0 built by amateurs who don't have all the details of how it was done in the past.  They already build lightsabers differently, and those sabers function differently.  They're bound to accidentally get more things wrong as they create a new Jedi Order, but it's not like the Order we know.

So, this is an actual example of a modified Star Wars Universe, and this one is done by the Star Wars people themselves.

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2024, 02:59:02 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on October 04, 2024, 04:27:05 PMThis just popped into my head:  set the game "much longer ago, in a galaxy far, far away"  There are a many proto-Jedi orders competing for talented recruits and influence.  Two of them are the Temple and the Sith.  Guess who wins?  Part of the fun of this is that the ancient history of the Star Wars setting is kind of a mystery that people are curious about.  This way you get to find out what happened, or at least your own version of it.

Interesting.

As a question here... You say two of them are "the Temple" and "the Sith". But I want to get away from portraying the prequel Jedi -- including a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi.

Would this "early days" setup work for you if none of the factions were a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi? i.e. They're all different?

That's what I was planning for my far-future Force sects. There's a bunch of lore about the long history of the Jedi - most of it now based on prequel-era assumptions. I feel like it would be easier for Star Wars fans to accept differences from lore if it was in a projected future than in the distant past.

I'm good with any variants of Star Wars, so that would be fine.  I'm not terribly worried about canon - there are enough different versions that one more isn't going to make much difference.

I liked the idea of doing it in the ancient history of Star Wars because I'm curious about it.  And when I mentioned the temple and the sith, the idea wasn't to present them as they're shown in an current stories, but to show what they used to be, the more different, the better.  And then have an event or two that started them evolving towards their state in the movies.  It's not that different in execution than setting it in the future.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 04, 2024, 03:08:01 PMThe basic idea of a Jedi is to be a superhero for their story.  If you can get one to help your side, then you've got a serious edge. 

It's also why Jedi type characters frequently need limits in games.  If they're too strong, playing everything else is pointless. 

As for how divergent you want your setting to be, specifically the Jedi part, there are examples of clear copying a Jedi in all but name, or wildly different.

Palladium's Phase World setting has Jedi.  They're called Cosmo-Knights. 

A Cosmo-Knight is chosen by some super entity that lives in the center of the galaxy, and uplifted people have super strength, super resistance to damage, body armor that's tougher than most army tanks, invulnerable to laser and fire energy damage, Mach speed flight, FTL flight, a powerful melee weapon that is created out of thin air, energy blasts, do not breathe, eat, drink, or sleep, and high resistance to psychic forces.

I would call that an O.P. class.  And so does the author, as Cosmo-Knights  are only available if the GM gives permission to play one. 

This might sound like a smug "gotcha" question, but I don't mean it that way.

This sounds to me a lot like an even more overpowered Warhammer 40k Space Marine. Would you class them as another version of Jedi under another name?

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 05, 2024, 04:25:48 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 04, 2024, 03:08:01 PMThe basic idea of a Jedi is to be a superhero for their story.  If you can get one to help your side, then you've got a serious edge. 

It's also why Jedi type characters frequently need limits in games.  If they're too strong, playing everything else is pointless. 

As for how divergent you want your setting to be, specifically the Jedi part, there are examples of clear copying a Jedi in all but name, or wildly different.

Palladium's Phase World setting has Jedi.  They're called Cosmo-Knights. 

A Cosmo-Knight is chosen by some super entity that lives in the center of the galaxy, and uplifted people have super strength, super resistance to damage, body armor that's tougher than most army tanks, invulnerable to laser and fire energy damage, Mach speed flight, FTL flight, a powerful melee weapon that is created out of thin air, energy blasts, do not breathe, eat, drink, or sleep, and high resistance to psychic forces.

I would call that an O.P. class.  And so does the author, as Cosmo-Knights  are only available if the GM gives permission to play one. 

This might sound like a smug "gotcha" question, but I don't mean it that way.

This sounds to me a lot like an even more overpowered Warhammer 40k Space Marine. Would you class them as another version of Jedi under another name?

Arguably, the Cosmo Knights are more the power level of Green Lanterns. They'd eat Space Marines for breakfast and use Jedi as toothpicks.
The resemblance is that they have a code of conduct, powers beyond the norm and serve galactic society.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 05, 2024, 10:00:39 AMFor a good source of material for your Jedi Resurgence setting there is the Disney Plus anime series called Star Wars Visions.  Specifically, the Ninth Jedi episode from season 1. 

Now, it's not clear if this episode is in the past or future, but most assume it's the future because the Jedi are well known and extinct.

Thanks, weirdguy564!! That's just what I'd be looking for. I just watched it. Here's the opening crawl of the episode.

QuoteMany generations have passed since the light of the Jedi protected the galaxy. Since then, an era of war has arisen.

But Margrave Juro, ruler of the planet Hy Izlan, has a plan. He has recently begun mining for rare kyber crystals with his territory. Using these crystals, he seeks to restore the Jedi by reforging their ancient weapons, lightsabers, which have been since lost to the galaxy.

However, ancient dark forces conspire to subjugate the galaxy. They hatch their own sinister plan to hunt all suspected Jedi and bring forth a new era of Sith rule...

It's possible that the Jedi could have been wiped out and re-established in the distant past, but the simpler answer is that it's in the future. It being only a 15-minute episode, there isn't time to establish any differences of what the new Jedi would be like compared to the old. The features we see of them seem the same, but there could be other differences.

I'd probably set mine many more generations later, when Juro and Ethan and Kara are distant memories... Enough time to establish new traditions.

I'll make another post with my ideas for the post-Jedi factions soon.

Is there a particular set of "Star Wars fans" that you know who have objected to any "non-canon" ideas, or is this just speculative?  This sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me...

First of all, there's no such thing as Star Wars "canon" now, and arguably never was.  Most Star Wars "fans" know this and are well aware of the hodge-podge nature of the setting.  At the least, there is original Lucas canon, comic-book canon, prequel canon, expanded universe canon, cartoon series canon, and Disney-Wars canon.  And I've probably missed a few.  Almost no one I know treats all of it as the same level of "canon."  People are picking and choosing all of the time (and most are probably not aware of 50% of it, anyway).  Hell, even Lucas-canon isn't, since he constantly made changes to the history and setting while making his movies.

Star Wars is an aesthetic, not a setting or history.  It's a feel (which is why Disney is failing so badly at it).  I've run many sessions of WEG SW (set post OT) where I've ignored the prequels entirely, had Jedi as wandering Buddhist monk-types who never were part of an organization or government, and everyone had a blast.  All players want to do is roleplay swinging lightsabers, blasting stormtroopers (or their equivalent), and having wild adventures.  Don't overthink it, because you'll screw it up even worse.  Pull the little bits of Star Wars lore that your players will instantly recognize, get them on a spaceship with something/one blasting at them, and have fun.  That's what "Star Wars" is...

"I don't believe it!"
"That is why you fail."

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2024, 11:25:29 PMThanks, weirdguy564!! That's just what I'd be looking for. I just watched it.

It's possible that the Jedi could have been wiped out and re-established in the distant past, but the simpler answer is that it's in the future. It being only a 15-minute episode, there isn't time to establish any differences of what the new Jedi would be like compared to the old. The features we see of them seem the same, but there could be other differences.

I'd probably set mine many more generations later, when Juro and Ethan and Kara are distant memories... Enough time to establish new traditions.

I'll make another post with my ideas for the post-Jedi factions soon.

Glad you liked it.  It is by FAR the most popular episode of Star Wars Visions.  It is well liked for being the closest to Star Wars, yet it still has it's own flair to it.  Many, many people have commented that The Ninth Jedi be turned into an actual series, or be the plot of the next movies.

At least it sets a precedent that even officially produced Star Wars stories can have an instance where a divergent Jedi Order exists.  Granted, the Visions series is officially non-canon, but its still a source of material to draw on.

As for literally being in the Ninth Jedi universe, that might be a stretch.  Just have a version of the galaxy just like the Ninth Jedi where they went extinct, bad guys are taking over, and establishing a new Jedi Order is the main plot of the RPG.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 05, 2024, 04:25:48 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 04, 2024, 03:08:01 PMThe basic idea of a Jedi is to be a superhero for their story.  If you can get one to help your side, then you've got a serious edge. 

It's also why Jedi type characters frequently need limits in games.  If they're too strong, playing everything else is pointless. 

As for how divergent you want your setting to be, specifically the Jedi part, there are examples of clear copying a Jedi in all but name, or wildly different.

Palladium's Phase World setting has Jedi.  They're called Cosmo-Knights. 

A Cosmo-Knight is chosen by some super entity that lives in the center of the galaxy, and uplifted people have super strength, super resistance to damage, body armor that's tougher than most army tanks, invulnerable to laser and fire energy damage, Mach speed flight, FTL flight, a powerful melee weapon that is created out of thin air, energy blasts, do not breathe, eat, drink, or sleep, and high resistance to psychic forces.

I would call that an O.P. class.  And so does the author, as Cosmo-Knights  are only available if the GM gives permission to play one. 

This might sound like a smug "gotcha" question, but I don't mean it that way.

This sounds to me a lot like an even more overpowered Warhammer 40k Space Marine. Would you class them as another version of Jedi under another name?

They are quite powerful, yes.  Individually, a Cosmo-Knight is on par with a small warship for durability and firepower. 

However, they're like this because the Rifts RPG is chocked full of extremely powerful character classes that can do all sorts of things.  I just use them as an example of a sci-fi setting that has a group of knights that are on another level of power.  Cosmo-Knights are Jedi Knights for their universe.

Like Ratman said, they're closest to comic book super heroes, specifically a cross between Superman and Green Lantern.  In fact, I think the hero they're closest to would be Captain Marvel from Marvel comics, and even then I would give her Thor's hammer, Mjolnir.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 06, 2024, 09:17:22 AMI've run many sessions of WEG SW (set post OT) where I've ignored the prequels entirely, had Jedi as wandering Buddhist monk-types who never were part of an organization or government, and everyone had a blast.  All players want to do is roleplay swinging lightsabers, blasting stormtroopers (or their equivalent), and having wild adventures.

This matches the OT better than the prequels did. In those original movies, the Jedi seemed more like they were normal people (such as Generals) who were also part of the Jedi Order. When a Jedi would find a suitable apprentice, he'd send the apprentice to Degoba to be trained by a local "master" who lived their. Of course, Obi-Wan never sent Annakin to see Yoda which is why neither Vader nor Palpatine seem to even know Yoda existed in the original movies.

So they'll end up more like Witchers; working alone most of the time but informally teaming up with other Jedi for important tasks. And, if the Jedi Order is small, you could add other force using traditions throughout the galaxy that might be fiends, allies, or even enemies. This is something official Star Wars has touched on but never really explored well.

Also, if you take the path of ignoring the prequels, you can greatly dial back a Jedi's physical powers making them a better fit for an RPG.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 06, 2024, 12:08:33 PMHowever, they're like this because the Rifts RPG is chocked full of extremely powerful character classes that can do all sorts of things.  I just use them as an example of a sci-fi setting that has a group of knights that are on another level of power.  Cosmo-Knights are Jedi Knights for their universe.

Good point. They're how OP a class has to be to be considered overpowered in a game that is already (in)famous for having a ton of crazy powerful character races and classes.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 06, 2024, 09:17:22 AMIs there a particular set of "Star Wars fans" that you know who have objected to any "non-canon" ideas, or is this just speculative?  This sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me...

First of all, there's no such thing as Star Wars "canon" now, and arguably never was.  Most Star Wars "fans" know this and are well aware of the hodge-podge nature of the setting.  At the least, there is original Lucas canon, comic-book canon, prequel canon, expanded universe canon, cartoon series canon, and Disney-Wars canon.  And I've probably missed a few.  Almost no one I know treats all of it as the same level of "canon."  People are picking and choosing all of the time (and most are probably not aware of 50% of it, anyway).  Hell, even Lucas-canon isn't, since he constantly made changes to the history and setting while making his movies.

Star Wars is an aesthetic, not a setting or history.  It's a feel (which is why Disney is failing so badly at it).  I've run many sessions of WEG SW (set post OT) where I've ignored the prequels entirely, had Jedi as wandering Buddhist monk-types who never were part of an organization or government, and everyone had a blast.  All players want to do is roleplay swinging lightsabers, blasting stormtroopers (or their equivalent), and having wild adventures.  Don't overthink it, because you'll screw it up even worse.  Pull the little bits of Star Wars lore that your players will instantly recognize, get them on a spaceship with something/one blasting at them, and have fun.  That's what "Star Wars" is...

"I don't believe it!"
"That is why you fail."

Uhh....I disagree?

The thing with Star Wars is not that it's a genre hodgepodge, but that the specific genre hodgepodge components Lucas originally picked wound up conflicting in a pretty specific way, which turns Star Wars into the genre equivalent of M. C. Escher's Relativity. For example, practically everything any Jedi ever says screams, "enlightened pacifist Buddhist," or, "tree hugging hippie," but most of the Jedi we actually see are front line fighters wielding high tech laser swords. That's not a random genre hodgepodge; that's intentionally putting opposites next to each other to project a sense of well worn-in complexity to the universe.

This formula isn't unique to Star Wars, either. In RPG settings, Deadlands has the high-tech steam gadgets powered by Ghost Rock, which is using this formula for Western Alternative History rather than Science Fantasy.

Most successful Star War content opts to draw more out of the already existing contradictions. You can absolutely add new contradicting elements to the mix (huge swaths of the old EU qualify, but Kotor 2 gets the nod for going completely off the rails and still being recognizably Star Wars because it understood this formula), but material made by people who do not understand how this technique created the unique feel of the original trilogy will probably not succeed to add new material to Star Wars and still feel, "Star Warsy."

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 06, 2024, 09:17:22 AMIs there a particular set of "Star Wars fans" that you know who have objected to any "non-canon" ideas, or is this just speculative?  This sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me...

Yes, this is just speculative -- that's why I'm asking for what people think here.

Also, there's different degrees of breaking with canon. If the Jedi are fine with love and marriage and attachment, and only recruit people as adults, then that completely invalidates the central plot of the three prequel movies. That's not some obscure line or minor side character or EU book.

I know a number of serious Star Wars fans. For example, I have a good friend (who officiated my wedding) that just got a Wraith Squadron tattoo. I think it's at least plausible that some would find the premise offputting.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 06, 2024, 09:17:22 AMStar Wars is an aesthetic, not a setting or history.  It's a feel (which is why Disney is failing so badly at it).  I've run many sessions of WEG SW (set post OT) where I've ignored the prequels entirely, had Jedi as wandering Buddhist monk-types who never were part of an organization or government, and everyone had a blast.  All players want to do is roleplay swinging lightsabers, blasting stormtroopers (or their equivalent), and having wild adventures.

Nothing wrong with mindless action, but I also like some more grounded stuff - a bit like beer-and-pretzels gonzo dungeon-crawling vs authentic medieval campaigns. In my Harn games, say, I followed a bunch of essays on religious belief.

In this case, I want to support the possibility of some more serious play. I gave the example of the guilt-ridden Force-sensitive sniper character before, which is the sort of character I've had in many Star Wars games. One of the reasons why I prefer the original trilogy over the prequels is because they suggested that the Jedi were not just chop-em-up action heroes.

Quote from: Yoda in The Empire Strikes BackReady, are you?  What know you of ready?  For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi.  My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained! A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.
(to the invisible Ben, indicating Luke)
This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm?  What he was doing.  Hmph. 

Adventure.  Heh!  Excitement.  Heh! 

A Jedi craves not these things.