Inspired a bit by weirdguy564's thread RPG class: the "not a Jedi, but it's a Jedi", I'm wondering about what's interesting to Star Wars fans. To me, the power-armor-using timespace-warping knights described in the thread sound interesting, but they have almost no overlap with Star Wars or the Jedi. I would definitely not say "it's a Jedi" about them.


That brings to mind some of my games set in the Star Wars universe. Personally, I hate the prequel movies and especially the Jedi as portrayed there - over things like pulling kids out of their families as toddlers to go be trained as warriors. BUT... Jedi are also seem pretty central to the appeal of Star Wars for a lot of players.

One idea I had was many centuries into the future from the Star Wars films, where the Force still exists, but there isn't a unified Jedi order since their legacy was disrupted. Instead, I'd have four competing Force-using sects who all have some similarities and some differences from the Jedi. It could also feature how different planets and cultures change over centuries.

Alternatively, I played in a game that is set in an isolated region where neither the Republic nor the Jedi have reach. This could have its own version of Jedi as well.

The question is, is there any point to this? Would it have any appeal to people who like Star Wars, or would it be better to just run an unrelated science fantasy game?

I don't care about publishing it commercially, so copyright doesn't matter here. It's a question of what sounds appealing.

Just as a personal opinion, I like Star Wars, at least much of it, and that would be cool with me.  If you look at the expanded universe media, you'll see that there are a lot of vision of what the star wars setting could be and they're pretty widely accepted.  I would be happy with about anything that branched off of canon between episodes 6 and 7.  And just to benchmark where I'm coming from, 4,5,6 were works of art, 1,2,3 were pretty good, and 7,8,9 were appalling.  They should have gone with Timothy Zahn's post-episode-6 story rather that mess.

Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 01:55:00 PMI don't care about publishing it commercially, so copyright doesn't matter here. It's a question of what sounds appealing.

When run WEG D6 Star Wars, which isn't very often lately, I've run it in the Mandalorian time frame. Post Jedi, but pre-sequels. The Empire is gone but it's remnants are still out there plotting their revenge/return. The New Republic is trying to rebuild but faces difficulties in getting everyone on the same page.
As to the Jedi, I know you don't like the details from the prequels, but I think they're pretty iconic now. I don't like it when the Jedi are knocked down too hard. The whole "The Jedi were the real bad guys" gets tiresome just as much as "The Empire were the real good guys". But they did fall, and part of that fall was their compromising and participating too closely in galactic politics and getting dragged into the mud of the Clone Wars. Luke has had some time to rebuild, but the Jedi are still rare and mysterious to most people in the galaxy.
This approach, I feel, manages to preserve a lot of the feel of the original films, but progresses the setting enough so that GMs have room to create new stories around the characters.

Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 01:55:00 PMInstead, I'd have four competing Force-using sects who all have some similarities and some differences from the Jedi.

You've jumped the shark.

The basic idea of a Jedi is to be a superhero for their story.  If you can get one to help your side, then you've got a serious edge. 

It's also why Jedi type characters frequently need limits in games.  If they're too strong, playing everything else is pointless. 

As for how divergent you want your setting to be, specifically the Jedi part, there are examples of clear copying a Jedi in all but name, or wildly different.

Palladium's Phase World setting has Jedi.  They're called Cosmo-Knights. 

A Cosmo-Knight is chosen by some super entity that lives in the center of the galaxy, and uplifted people have super strength, super resistance to damage, body armor that's tougher than most army tanks, invulnerable to laser and fire energy damage, Mach speed flight, FTL flight, a powerful melee weapon that is created out of thin air, energy blasts, do not breathe, eat, drink, or sleep, and high resistance to psychic forces.

I would call that an O.P. class.  And so does the author, as Cosmo-Knights  are only available if the GM gives permission to play one. 

Another game is Starfinder by Paizo.  The Solararion can generate a melee weapon from thin air, as well as gain a list of solar themed powers as they level up. 

Pundit's own Star Adventurer has a Psychic Warrior that is a clear Jedi analog.

It's one of the bits of advice frequently given when people play West End Games Star Wars to only run all Jedi teams, or don't allow Jedi.

I might write my game so everyone is a not-Jedi of some flavor.  Each one could be a roguish Jedi, a tank Jedi, a healer Jedi, or an eldritch Jedi.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 04, 2024, 02:51:03 PMAs to the Jedi, I know you don't like the details from the prequels, but I think they're pretty iconic now. I don't like it when the Jedi are knocked down too hard. The whole "The Jedi were the real bad guys" gets tiresome just as much as "The Empire were the real good guys".

That's the thing. I don't want to be knocking the prequel-era Jedi in my games, but I don't like them. I don't want them as bad guys -- I want them not to be an issue.

So I've been thinking about ways to play Star Wars without having prequel-based Jedi.

This just popped into my head:  set the game "much longer ago, in a galaxy far, far away"  There are a many proto-Jedi orders competing for talented recruits and influence.  Two of them are the Temple and the Sith.  Guess who wins?  Part of the fun of this is that the ancient history of the Star Wars setting is kind of a mystery that people are curious about.  This way you get to find out what happened, or at least your own version of it.

A long time ago at a table far, far, away...my GM got sick and tired of me playing good characters and another player having all sociopathic PCs. So he told me to make a Sith character and the other guy to make a Jedi.

He made a Jedi who behaved like a Sith and I made a Sith who behaved like a Jedi. This worked shockingly well on both sides. To this day when talking Star Wars, I tend to speak in-character specifically because a Sith who acts like a Jedi is outside of the way people normally interact with Star Wars. She was also quite the Star Wars legends history buff.


The defining traits of the Jedi are half philosophical and half aesthetic. Jedi believe the Force is basically a non-sentient energy. A spiritual bar magnet which pushes you around, but you can also push back to get things done. The idea that the Force is a sentient entity with goals of its own is more a Kreiatic Sith or Bloodline Sith viewpoint. You will essentially never see it among fallen Jedi Sith like Exar Kun, and only very rarely among Baneic Sith.

Aesthetically, the Jedi generally forego overt technology use or reliance on technology when they can rely on the Force instead. This is why Jedi wear robes rather than armor; the Force will almost always warn them when they are in immediate danger, showing them the future a split second before it happens. If they can rely on the Force to defend themselves, why would they use armor?

They do use technologies when necessary. The Force can't send you through hyperspace, so they do tend to use vehicles and spacecraft. Likewise, while you can use the Force to send messages to people, it isn't easy, and radios are far more reliable. Also, lightsabers: lightsabers are actually Sith inventions. The Jedi adopted their use out of necessity because the Sith using early lightsabers found it quite easy to overpower Jedi not using them. Jedi generally revile the use of technology, but are pragmatic enough to adopt it when necessary. This gives them a tech minimalistic aesthetic.

Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 04:17:24 PMSo I've been thinking about ways to play Star Wars without having prequel-based Jedi.

I think you're going to have an uphill battle on that one. If you're lucky, the players will be on board. But the prequel era are canon and a lot of fans grew up with the prequels as "their" Star Wars.

Quote from: GnomeWorks on October 04, 2024, 02:53:23 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 01:55:00 PMInstead, I'd have four competing Force-using sects who all have some similarities and some differences from the Jedi.

You've jumped the shark.

I'd have to agree with GnomeWorks here.

It doesn't matter which era in the Star Wars franchise you draw ideas from, some of the stuff was shit and some was brilliant and some was just unworkable in a game. I didn't like the Yuuzhan Vong books and supplements because they were just too far outside what I consider Star Wars, but I kept some bits of it to tease my players with oddities in game. I love the ideas from the TIE Fighter/X-Wing games and the Kyle Katarn games and Rebel Assault, Starkiller from Force Unleashed was just so ridiculously overpowered that there was no way the character could be used in a game. The entire book of The Crystal Star made me violently ill and letting players incorporate some of the ideas into a game was a fucking nightmare.

There is a lot of Star Wars out there and you really just have to pick and choose what to use and what to ignore. Some works great and some are game-killing.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 04, 2024, 06:20:33 PMStarkiller from Force Unleashed was just so ridiculously overpowered that there was no way the character could be used in a game.

Alls I know about Force Unleashed is the shot of Starkiller dragging a Star Destroyer out of orbit with the Force and I thought...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 04, 2024, 05:55:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 04:17:24 PMSo I've been thinking about ways to play Star Wars without having prequel-based Jedi.

I think you're going to have an uphill battle on that one. If you're lucky, the players will be on board. But the prequel era are canon and a lot of fans grew up with the prequels as "their" Star Wars.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 04, 2024, 06:20:33 PMIt doesn't matter which era in the Star Wars franchise you draw ideas from, some of the stuff was shit and some was brilliant and some was just unworkable in a game. I didn't like the Yuuzhan Vong books and supplements because they were just too far outside what I consider Star Wars, but I kept some bits of it to tease my players with oddities in game. I love the ideas from the TIE Fighter/X-Wing games and the Kyle Katarn games and Rebel Assault, Starkiller from Force Unleashed was just so ridiculously overpowered that there was no way the character could be used in a game. The entire book of The Crystal Star made me violently ill and letting players incorporate some of the ideas into a game was a fucking nightmare.

There is a lot of Star Wars out there and you really just have to pick and choose what to use and what to ignore. Some works great and some are game-killing.

The problem is that -- as Ratman_tf points out -- the prequel-era Jedi are central to the canon at this point. Ignoring them isn't like ignoring The Crystal Star or other EU works, especially as the prequels have influenced so many later works. 

I'd personally be happy if I could go back and just set a game in Star Wars universe before the prequels came out - maybe including some selection of EU comics or novels, but at this point, that seems like an even bigger ask than my far-future or fringe-galaxy setting ideas.

Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 07:06:02 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 04, 2024, 05:55:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 04:17:24 PMSo I've been thinking about ways to play Star Wars without having prequel-based Jedi.

I think you're going to have an uphill battle on that one. If you're lucky, the players will be on board. But the prequel era are canon and a lot of fans grew up with the prequels as "their" Star Wars.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 04, 2024, 06:20:33 PMIt doesn't matter which era in the Star Wars franchise you draw ideas from, some of the stuff was shit and some was brilliant and some was just unworkable in a game. I didn't like the Yuuzhan Vong books and supplements because they were just too far outside what I consider Star Wars, but I kept some bits of it to tease my players with oddities in game. I love the ideas from the TIE Fighter/X-Wing games and the Kyle Katarn games and Rebel Assault, Starkiller from Force Unleashed was just so ridiculously overpowered that there was no way the character could be used in a game. The entire book of The Crystal Star made me violently ill and letting players incorporate some of the ideas into a game was a fucking nightmare.

There is a lot of Star Wars out there and you really just have to pick and choose what to use and what to ignore. Some works great and some are game-killing.

The problem is that -- as Ratman_tf points out -- the prequel-era Jedi are central to the canon at this point. Ignoring them isn't like ignoring The Crystal Star or other EU works, especially as the prequels have influenced so many later works. 

I'd personally be happy if I could go back and just set a game in Star Wars universe before the prequels came out - maybe including some selection of EU comics or novels, but at this point, that seems like an even bigger ask than my far-future or fringe-galaxy setting ideas.

Then do that.

A lot of what happened in the prequels, especially with the Jedi, would both not be common knowledge for most player characters and be deliberately covered up by the Empire's propaganda narrative. Almost 20 years have passed in the Star Wars universe since the prequels ended and the original trilogy begins, that is close to a generation of rewriting history by the Empire.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 04, 2024, 07:22:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 07:06:02 PMThe problem is that -- as Ratman_tf points out -- the prequel-era Jedi are central to the canon at this point. Ignoring them isn't like ignoring The Crystal Star or other EU works, especially as the prequels have influenced so many later works. 

I'd personally be happy if I could go back and just set a game in Star Wars universe before the prequels came out - maybe including some selection of EU comics or novels, but at this point, that seems like an even bigger ask than my far-future or fringe-galaxy setting ideas.

Then do that.

A lot of what happened in the prequels, especially with the Jedi, would both not be common knowledge for most player characters and be deliberately covered up by the Empire's propaganda narrative. Almost 20 years have passed in the Star Wars universe since the prequels ended and the original trilogy begins, that is close to a generation of rewriting history by the Empire.

The characters might not know it, but the players certainly would.

I feel like it would be dissonant for current-day players to see, say, husband-and-wife Jedi masters like Luke and Mara Jade. But I guess you're saying you'd prefer that (ignoring prequel continuity) compared to a far-future or fringe-galaxy setting where there aren't canonical Jedi. Is that right?

It seemed to me that it was better to make a clear-cut break, rather than outright clashing with canon. Hmm...

Quote from: Fheredin on October 04, 2024, 05:50:22 PMA long time ago at a table far, far, away...my GM got sick and tired of me playing good characters and another player having all sociopathic PCs. So he told me to make a Sith character and the other guy to make a Jedi.

He made a Jedi who behaved like a Sith and I made a Sith who behaved like a Jedi. This worked shockingly well on both sides. To this day when talking Star Wars, I tend to speak in-character specifically because a Sith who acts like a Jedi is outside of the way people normally interact with Star Wars. She was also quite the Star Wars legends history buff.

Interesting. I had a similar pair of characters in a game from five years ago.

One was a Force-sensitive rebel who followed as best he could of Jedi ways based on books, but was never trained. He developed pinpoint accuracy - like Luke's Death Star shot - and used it as a sniper. The catch was that he was reaching out with his feelings, so he would feel the target just as he shot them. This gave him a lot of guilt and nightmares. He tried to always learn and write down the name of whoever he shot and killed, and given them a proper burial if he could.

The other was a former Imperial inquisitor who was recruited because he hated the Jedi, but he also hated the Empire and quickly turned against them. He developed his own philosophy that the Emperor had corrupted the true message of the Sith, which was that emotions should be embraced and directed for righteousness. It was a type of grey Jedi philosophy. Love was good as connection to others, but hatred could also be good as hatred of injustice. Fear was natural - and the way past it wasn't to not feel fear, but to accept fear. I left it ambiguous if he was skating on the edge of the Dark Side, or if he had truly found a balance.