Quote from: Chris24601 on September 17, 2024, 08:26:43 AMand Wraith is generally so removed that while it can participate in some of the other splats' settings without undermining the Wraith cosmology, others coming into their primary setting isn't very feasible.

Orpheus, WW's last gasp, feels like it would work with Wraith. But the setting its presented in keeps throwing large wrenches into that idea. Can be done. But its going to be messy.

On Werewolf. The bigger problem is that Werewolf is in conflict with itself internally.

Which in all honesty is the overarching theme throughout 90% of all WW settings. NOTHING is consistent. EVERYTHING contradicts something else, even internally, (and 100% externally).

Aberrant had, for a WW book, an unusual amount of internal consistency. Well least till Aeon/Trinity came out and that went out the window.

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 16, 2024, 10:25:12 PMWorld of Darkness is one of those things that had its peak of popularity a long time ago but is still kept alive by a core group of die-hard fans.  People still play it and new products are still being made.  It's just nowhere near as popular as it was back in the 90s.

Well, it's amazing to me how fast it vanished. I always attributed this to the new WoD setting, and assumed that nobody liked it, but it used to fill game stores and then ... nothing.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 18, 2024, 01:24:11 PMUrban fantasy is a dead genre outside of paint by numbers romance novels. Sure, Harry Potter is technically urban fantasy, but Hogwarts might as well be another planet for all the difference it makes.

Jim Butcher's "Dresden Files" is still one of my favorite urban fantasy series out there, and it's not really a romance novel. DF has vampires and werewolves and wizards and the fae and all sorts of cool supernatural stuff.

Quote from: Omega on September 18, 2024, 02:18:41 PMAeon/Trinity

I remember seeing Aeon in the gaming store and thinking how badass it would be to play. That lasted a couple of months before it magically disappeared, changed its named, then fell off the radar completely. Funny how popular WW was for a few years (they had a fucking stable in WWF) before just almost becoming completely nonexistent.

Quote from: finarvyn on September 18, 2024, 05:31:59 PMWell, it's amazing to me how fast it vanished. I always attributed this to the new WoD setting, and assumed that nobody liked it, but it used to fill game stores and then ... nothing.

It isn't that simple, despite what haters/historical revisionists like to claim. The Vampire: The Requiem rulebook sold 100,000 copies of its first printing and nWoD had sold something like 2 million books by 2008 (4 years after release) when the last public numbers were released. For comparison, oWoD sold 5 million books over the first 13 years.

The issues that led to WW's demise were complicated. WoD was canceled because it wasn't selling anymore, they'd written themselves into a corner and couldn't do anything besides repackaging. The anniversary releases were memberberries. This was apparent even in the 90s, hence why the controversial third editions were created. When that didn't work, then WW rebooted. Then they decided to go into video games and sold themselves to CCP, which is where things took the turn for the worst. CCP had bigger concerns, since ttrpg money is pocket change to video game money and video game markets are actually competitive, so within a few years they gutted WW and ultimately sold it off. This is what killed WW, not anything they did in the ttrpg market.

The nWoD/CoD books were successful. Forsaken, Awakening, and Lost were, AFAIK, more popular than their predecessors. Lost especially was surprisingly successful, to the point where it was promoted from a limited release (only 6 books were planned, then nothing) to an ongoing release schedule. Yeah, grognards hated it, but zillennials loved it. It was an example of attracting a new audience actually working. I remember it being hugely popular in the 2000s and saw new releases on the shelves of bookstores. It was successful enough that the original writing team still wanted to make stuff for it before Paradox pulled the license.

The only reason that oWoD is still around in any form is because of Bloodlines popularizing it among tourists who never play the ttrpg. Of course, Paradox is bungling that because they're not trying to capitalize on the quirky tone that made Bloodlines a cult hit. If Requiem had a similarly quirky video game release, then you can be sure that tourists would be singing it praises. Both of the story premises for BL2 (baby vamp joining a clan after being turned, elder waking up depowered) would've worked better in Requiem anyway; indeed, you could've done both at once. Requiem's structure is, ironically, even better for video games: there's 5 classes with balanced power spreads (each has 1 unique power, plus 2 others shared with one other each), 5 defined political/ideological factions to start with, and any number of other factions and bloodlines that can be joined later. Several WoD bloodlines were already adapted and it wouldn't be difficult to adapt any remainder.

Quote from: finarvyn on September 18, 2024, 05:31:59 PMJim Butcher's "Dresden Files" is still one of my favorite urban fantasy series out there, and it's not really a romance novel. DF has vampires and werewolves and wizards and the fae and all sorts of cool supernatural stuff.

DF is a survivor from the good old days, not representative of anything being released nowadays. Most of the writers from the 90s and 2000s don't write anything anymore. It's frustrating.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2024, 09:59:24 AMDF is a survivor from the good old days, not representative of anything being released nowadays. Most of the writers from the 90s and 2000s don't write anything anymore. It's frustrating.

To be fair... the 90's was THIRTY years ago. i.e. many of those authors not writing much anymore are in their 60's or even 70's and 80s now. Priorities change as you get older, especially if you've been successful enough earlier to be able to now live comfortably off savings and investments.

This why I've largely turned to doing things myself in terms of RPGs... for this particular genre I'm currently hammering on my Hunters of the Damned concept using a streamlined version of my "White Book Mage" as a foundation (starting with switching to d6's for the dice pools instead of d10's).

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 17, 2024, 08:26:43 AM

Quote from: Omega on September 17, 2024, 06:33:46 AMMy experience is that Vampire the Masquerade works best with Lupines (cursed bloodthirsty monsters living in the wilds... I got them to work as a variant vampire who must start with four dots in protean, only loses all their disciplines during the daylight and feeds on flesh instead of blood to restore its "blood" pool) rather than Garou, and Sorcerers (linear magic) rather than Mages. Wraiths incorporate rather seamlessly, but changelings are completely incompatible. Demons as presented in VtM splats fit the themes, but ironically, Demon the Fallen, despite having surface similarities doesn't work at all.

Hunters of either variety also fit nicely into the Vampire corner (the supernatural ones are essentially manifesting a type of True Faith) and the Hunters Hunted (psychics, hedge magic, and such) variety was from a Vampire supplement to begin with. The original version of Mummy (before they made them their own hardcover and completely borked their lore) also fit well within the Vampire-verse corner.

Werewolf plays well with nothing. It's core premise is too Dog-matic (ba dum bum tish) to play with the metaphysics of anything else.

On paper Mage with its belief creates reality metaphysics would seem to be able to incorporate everything, but in practice it's fundamental premise just melts off anything unique from the other lines and keeps only the mechanics intact... vampires are just bygone thaumivores who drink blood to feed on the quintessence of others, etc. Its probably best for a general crossover if no one cares about deeper themes, but these days I consider its underlying Gnostic themes more disruptive to my enjoyment so would never run it these days.

Changeling barely plays well with itself and Wraith is generally so removed that while it can participate in some of the other splats' settings without undermining the Wraith cosmology, others coming into their primary setting isn't very feasible.

Hunter the Reckoning fits best with Vampire, least well with Werewolf, and are probably could be arranged to have the least problems with Mage, but once you're talking PCs they may as well just be Mages with a HtR paradigm or they'll be third class at best.

Demon is basically a version of Vampire that doesn't play well with others both on power scaling or theme. It's another Werewolf basically.

These days I'm futzing on my own ruleset and cosmology that probably veers closest to the Vampire-verse above, only from the PC perspective of being a hunter and might have a dash of cyberpunk just for flavor (near future dystopian elements for its darker themes rather than aping WoD's "Gothic Punk").

I'd love to see this. Agree 100% with your stuff about oWoD.

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 19, 2024, 01:33:55 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2024, 09:59:24 AMDF is a survivor from the good old days, not representative of anything being released nowadays. Most of the writers from the 90s and 2000s don't write anything anymore. It's frustrating.

To be fair... the 90's was THIRTY years ago. i.e. many of those authors not writing much anymore are in their 60's or even 70's and 80s now. Priorities change as you get older, especially if you've been successful enough earlier to be able to now live comfortably off savings and investments.

Sure, but nobody's come along to replace them with a new generation of writers. Urban fantasy has been completely taken over by romance. Pure romance where the conflict is "will the heroine fuck the werewolf hunk, the selkie stud, the leprechaun prince, or the dragon shifter?" Other genres and conflicts like action, mystery, etc. have all faded into irrelevance.

I don't know how this happened.

I'd play old Vampire, if the people were right. But not any of that new 5e shit.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2024, 02:12:34 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 19, 2024, 01:33:55 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2024, 09:59:24 AMDF is a survivor from the good old days, not representative of anything being released nowadays. Most of the writers from the 90s and 2000s don't write anything anymore. It's frustrating.

To be fair... the 90's was THIRTY years ago. i.e. many of those authors not writing much anymore are in their 60's or even 70's and 80s now. Priorities change as you get older, especially if you've been successful enough earlier to be able to now live comfortably off savings and investments.

Sure, but nobody's come along to replace them with a new generation of writers. Urban fantasy has been completely taken over by romance. Pure romance where the conflict is "will the heroine fuck the werewolf hunk, the selkie stud, the leprechaun prince, or the dragon shifter?" Other genres and conflicts like action, mystery, etc. have all faded into irrelevance.

I don't know how this happened.

Yes, you do. Right from the start, World of Darkness attracted a lot of sex-starved gen x women who were into hot vampire and werewolf studs. The infatuation with urban fantasy romance goes at least back to the 80s (predating WoD by several years).

As grrrl powa~ became all the rage in the late aughts and early teens, vampire erotica became ascendant. Then Twilight came out, and I'm willing to bet men petty much checked out of urban fantasy.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 19, 2024, 02:38:36 PMI'd play old Vampire, if the people were right. But not any of that new 5e shit.

Why play that IP at all? It has so much idiosyncratic baggage and unplayable rules. Is this a Gen X nostalgia thing?

I wouldn't listen to anything BoxCrayon has to say when it comes to World of Darkness. He makes up actual lies, uses his own biased experiences and has an axe to grind. In short he's completely biased and hates anything and everything to do with World of Darkness.

He has nothing constructive to add to any conversation on the topic except to shit it up.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2024, 03:27:14 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 19, 2024, 02:38:36 PMI'd play old Vampire, if the people were right. But not any of that new 5e shit.

Why play that IP at all? It has so much idiosyncratic baggage and unplayable rules. Is this a Gen X nostalgia thing?

Because believe it or not, people *LIKED* The world of Darkness. People think it's fun and cool. There's a reason it was the number 2 RPG series of all time for a long time running. I get that you hate the series and everything to do with it, but dude... How about you just stop posting in these threads? You add nothing to the conversation, you come in here and take a big shit in the middle of the room.

It's fucking annoying trying to talk about WoD games knowing you're going to just come in and whine like a bitch about it the whole time.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2024, 03:27:14 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 19, 2024, 02:38:36 PMI'd play old Vampire, if the people were right. But not any of that new 5e shit.

Why play that IP at all? It has so much idiosyncratic baggage and unplayable rules. Is this a Gen X nostalgia thing?

idiosyncratic baggage and unplayable rules? Hah!

I'll still play Rifts if someone is offering.

OWoD really only gets unplayable if you start mixing splats or playing Elder/Archmage tier games. Last V20 game I ran the elders of the city were eighth gen or weaker with one very reclusive 7th Gen present. The NPCs were mostly based on historical figures from the city in question and that was more important to the lore and schemes than any of the Metaplot nonsense (which was completely ignored). None of the rules that applied made it unplayable and the baggage can be easily ignored because outside of the oldest Elders the baggage is all Antediluvian nonsense that matters not a whit unless you choose to make it matter.

Hell, I've had more Antediluvian nonsense turn up in my old Mage campaigns than in any Vampire campaign (mostly because Mage PCs have a tendency to go digging through the ancient past seeking knowledge and ancient vampires are one of the few other supernaturals that really pose any threat to a mid-sized cabal of Mages once they start getting to four and five dots in the spheres).

But I've grown to really dislike Mage upon undergoing some spiritual growth for its Gnostic bullshit underpinnings and while Vampire's metaphysics are a bit more to my liking I dislike playing a parasite (when I do get the opportunity to play, I run a Dhampir... taking the power hit to not have to feed on blood) which is why I've turned to developing my own setting for Urban Fantasy that includes what I think will be interesting and playable and better fit the zeitgeist of the day (i.e. taking down powerful monsters preying on humanity rather than being one).

The monsters presently are based on the idea of individuals making pacts with demons (who often disguised themselves as pagan gods) for supernatural powers as the basis for the various types. Dracula is prime example, having gained his supernatural powers from the study of magic under Satan himself (most of what Dracula could do was not from being a vampire, but a warlock... undeath was just another power and drinking blood a condition of the pact that granted it).

Lycaon is another example or at least some versions of his myth where he didn't murder and try to feed Zeus his children to test the gods, but as a sacrifice to Baal/Zeus for the supernatural power to become the ultimate predator... this being so close to Caine and his bargaining with Lilith in OWoD is what I used as the legends behind the Lupines (since I don't use Garou due to their mythos conflicts) that showed up in my VtM campaign and its something I like enough to carry over into my own setting.

Blood (i.e. life) is fuel for all the monsters (Witches by default employ blood/sacrifices to fuel their rituals) and devotion to one or more of the Seven Deadly Sins is what determines their power (thus someone truly devoted to wickedness could pull a "nobody to nightmare" deal... which Dracula did historically and is probably currently at war with some Mexican cartel leader who sold his soul for an advantage over his rivals for the title of Lord of All Vampires).

Player options currently in development break down to...

The Called: Those who experienced some supernatural event or were inducted into a society that caused them to become a hunter. They have no supernatural gifts, but get other edges. Those with the right connections could even get cybernetics (I did mention I was planning a dash of cyberpunk to replace the Gothic Punk).

The Chosen: Those granted supernatural Charisms by God. They gain strength by holding true to the virtues.

The Cursed: While master vampires, werewolf founders, etc. make deliberate pacts with demons for power, they also seek to spread wickedness by cursing others through various means (ex. the werewolf bite, a witch's curse, etc.). Those who become afflicted walk a tightrope between self-control and sin. Holding to the virtues limits their power, but also keeps them from becoming a monster. Engaging in sin strengthens their power, but erodes their control (note that full-blown monsters are far more powerful than a cursed mortal is... the cursed mortals have power levels about equal to the other PC types if they keep themselves under control).

The Children: God will turn even wickedness towards goodness and so it is with the children of monsters, who gain a portion of their power to use against evil that is strengthened not by sin, but by virtue (ex. they get the sorcerous control over the world that Avarice grants, but that power is strengthened by acts of charity not greed).

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 19, 2024, 03:39:07 PMI wouldn't listen to anything BoxCrayon has to say when it comes to World of Darkness. He makes up actual lies, uses his own biased experiences and has an axe to grind. In short he's completely biased and hates anything and everything to do with World of Darkness.

He has nothing constructive to add to any conversation on the topic except to shit it up.

Ok. I apologize for annoying you, then.

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 19, 2024, 04:52:56 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2024, 03:27:14 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 19, 2024, 02:38:36 PMI'd play old Vampire, if the people were right. But not any of that new 5e shit.

Why play that IP at all? It has so much idiosyncratic baggage and unplayable rules. Is this a Gen X nostalgia thing?

idiosyncratic baggage and unplayable rules? Hah!

I'll still play Rifts if someone is offering.

OWoD really only gets unplayable if you start mixing splats or playing Elder/Archmage tier games. Last V20 game I ran the elders of the city were eighth gen or weaker with one very reclusive 7th Gen present. The NPCs were mostly based on historical figures from the city in question and that was more important to the lore and schemes than any of the Metaplot nonsense (which was completely ignored). None of the rules that applied made it unplayable and the baggage can be easily ignored because outside of the oldest Elders the baggage is all Antediluvian nonsense that matters not a whit unless you choose to make it matter.

Hell, I've had more Antediluvian nonsense turn up in my old Mage campaigns than in any Vampire campaign (mostly because Mage PCs have a tendency to go digging through the ancient past seeking knowledge and ancient vampires are one of the few other supernaturals that really pose any threat to a mid-sized cabal of Mages once they start getting to four and five dots in the spheres).

But I've grown to really dislike Mage upon undergoing some spiritual growth for its Gnostic bullshit underpinnings and while Vampire's metaphysics are a bit more to my liking I dislike playing a parasite (when I do get the opportunity to play, I run a Dhampir... taking the power hit to not have to feed on blood) which is why I've turned to developing my own setting for Urban Fantasy that includes what I think will be interesting and playable and better fit the zeitgeist of the day (i.e. taking down powerful monsters preying on humanity rather than being one).

The monsters presently are based on the idea of individuals making pacts with demons (who often disguised themselves as pagan gods) for supernatural powers as the basis for the various types. Dracula is prime example, having gained his supernatural powers from the study of magic under Satan himself (most of what Dracula could do was not from being a vampire, but a warlock... undeath was just another power and drinking blood a condition of the pact that granted it).

Lycaon is another example or at least some versions of his myth where he didn't murder and try to feed Zeus his children to test the gods, but as a sacrifice to Baal/Zeus for the supernatural power to become the ultimate predator... this being so close to Caine and his bargaining with Lilith in OWoD is what I used as the legends behind the Lupines (since I don't use Garou due to their mythos conflicts) that showed up in my VtM campaign and its something I like enough to carry over into my own setting.

Blood (i.e. life) is fuel for all the monsters (Witches by default employ blood/sacrifices to fuel their rituals) and devotion to one or more of the Seven Deadly Sins is what determines their power (thus someone truly devoted to wickedness could pull a "nobody to nightmare" deal... which Dracula did historically and is probably currently at war with some Mexican cartel leader who sold his soul for an advantage over his rivals for the title of Lord of All Vampires).

Player options currently in development break down to...

The Called: Those who experienced some supernatural event or were inducted into a society that caused them to become a hunter. They have no supernatural gifts, but get other edges. Those with the right connections could even get cybernetics (I did mention I was planning a dash of cyberpunk to replace the Gothic Punk).

The Chosen: Those granted supernatural Charisms by God. They gain strength by holding true to the virtues.

The Cursed: While master vampires, werewolf founders, etc. make deliberate pacts with demons for power, they also seek to spread wickedness by cursing others through various means (ex. the werewolf bite, a witch's curse, etc.). Those who become afflicted walk a tightrope between self-control and sin. Holding to the virtues limits their power, but also keeps them from becoming a monster. Engaging in sin strengthens their power, but erodes their control (note that full-blown monsters are far more powerful than a cursed mortal is... the cursed mortals have power levels about equal to the other PC types if they keep themselves under control).

The Children: God will turn even wickedness towards goodness and so it is with the children of monsters, who gain a portion of their power to use against evil that is strengthened not by sin, but by virtue (ex. they get the sorcerous control over the world that Avarice grants, but that power is strengthened by acts of charity not greed).

I didn't see this when I made my last post. Looking forward to see you publish your books.

World of Darkness is dead. Paradox killed it. The best anyone can do now is make new games. Hopefully without the bad blood that still splits the remaining WW community.