Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2024, 09:10:58 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2024, 05:00:34 PMI don't see many new ttrpgs that compare with anything produced before the Great Recession. Both creativity and volume of writing have dramatically decreased.

Well, you're not looking really hard if at all:

Pundit's stuff
Kevin Crawford
DCC (even if they're going woke at breakneck speed)
Rob Necronomicon's Terminus
The zombie city by Grim Jim

And that's just of the top of my head without stopping to think, none of which is a retro-clone nor does it use other's IP.

IMHO you're blackpilled, want to remain like that and will rationalize to justify doing so.

My impression is that BoxCrayonTales isn't interested in OSR titles -- and he really wants something close to World of Darkness like Everlasting or WitchCraft. And to be fair, that particular style of game has grown less popular.

But even given limited taste in RPGs, one can easily play for ages using RPG material that has already been written. There's nothing wrong with older material. I just played a 1E Changeling game last weekend.

There are thousands of people playing supposedly "dead" games and having a great time doing so, just like how people read old books and watch old movies. I was just talking to a friend in church who was going to be talking to introduce a Laurel & Hardy movies today.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 08, 2024, 10:31:48 AMSo, no, it isn't just our perspectives that have changed.  The actual quality of works today has declined.  At the beginning of each "Open Bar", the Critical Drinker will read off the top grossing movies of a year from the 80's, 90's, or early 2000's.  When you compare just those top twenty or so movies, any of them would shine compared to all of the movies produced in the last ten years.  And Hollywood was putting out ten of them every year.  Our culture has changed, and it's hurting our creativity...

I'd agree with the general principle that there are greater and lesser ages in creativity for different fields. In film, it's generally agreed that there was a Golden Age of Hollywood that ended in the 1960s, leading to lower-quality period in the late 1960s - after antitrust action and the dawn of television. I suspect Hollywood is going through similar in recent years. The rise of streaming, combined with the pandemic and the writer's strike all combined - as well as cultural shifts.

I was curious about this, so I tried assembling a sampling just from the middle of each decade.

#	|	1985	|	1995	|	2005	|	2015
1	|	Back to the Future	|	Batman Forever	|	Revenge of the Sith	|	Jurassic World
2	|	Beverly Hills Cop	|	Apollo 13	|	Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire	|	The Force Awakens
3	|	Rambo	|	Toy Story	|	War of the Worlds	|	Avengers: Age of Ultron
4	|	Rocky IV	|	Pocahontas	|	The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe	|	Inside Out
5	|	Cocoon	|	Ace Ventura 2	|	Wedding Crashers	|	Furious 7
6	|	Witness	|	Casper	|	Charlie and the Chocolate Factory	|	American Sniper
7	|	The Goonies	|	Die Hard with a Vengeance	|	Batman Begins	|	Minions
8	|	Police Academy 2	|	Crimson Tide	|	Madagascar	|	Mockingjay - Part 2
9	|	Fletch	|	GoldenEye	|	Mr. & Mrs. Smith	|	The Martian
10	|	A View to a Kill	|	Waterworld	|	Hitch	|	Cinderella

Some films stand out as classics like Back to the Future and Apollo 13, but 1985 also has Rocky IV and Police Academy 2.

EDITED TO FIX QUOTE ATTRIBUTION

Quote from: jhkim on September 08, 2024, 06:17:17 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2024, 09:10:58 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2024, 05:00:34 PMI don't see many new ttrpgs that compare with anything produced before the Great Recession. Both creativity and volume of writing have dramatically decreased.

Well, you're not looking really hard if at all:

Pundit's stuff
Kevin Crawford
DCC (even if they're going woke at breakneck speed)
Rob Necronomicon's Terminus
The zombie city by Grim Jim

And that's just of the top of my head without stopping to think, none of which is a retro-clone nor does it use other's IP.

IMHO you're blackpilled, want to remain like that and will rationalize to justify doing so.

My impression is that BoxCrayonTales isn't interested in OSR titles -- and he really wants something close to World of Darkness like Everlasting or WitchCraft. And to be fair, that particular style of game has grown less popular.

But even given limited taste in RPGs, one can easily play for ages using RPG material that has already been written. There's nothing wrong with older material. I just played a 1E Changeling game last weekend.

There are thousands of people playing supposedly "dead" games and having a great time doing so, just like how people read old books and watch old movies. I was just talking to a friend in church who was going to be talking to introduce a Laurel & Hardy movies today.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 08, 2024, 04:42:07 PMSo, no, it isn't just our perspectives that have changed.  The actual quality of works today has declined.  At the beginning of each "Open Bar", the Critical Drinker will read off the top grossing movies of a year from the 80's, 90's, or early 2000's.  When you compare just those top twenty or so movies, any of them would shine compared to all of the movies produced in the last ten years.  And Hollywood was putting out ten of them every year.  Our culture has changed, and it's hurting our creativity...

I'd agree with the general principle that there are greater and lesser ages in creativity for different fields. In film, it's generally agreed that there was a Golden Age of Hollywood that ended in the 1960s, leading to lower-quality period in the late 1960s - after antitrust action and the dawn of television. I suspect Hollywood is going through similar in recent years. The rise of streaming, combined with the pandemic and the writer's strike all combined - as well as cultural shifts.

I was curious about this, so I tried assembling a sampling just from the middle of each decade.

#	|	1985	|	1995	|	2005	|	2015
1	|	Back to the Future	|	Batman Forever	|	Revenge of the Sith	|	Jurassic World
2	|	Beverly Hills Cop	|	Apollo 13	|	Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire	|	The Force Awakens
3	|	Rambo	|	Toy Story	|	War of the Worlds	|	Avengers: Age of Ultron
4	|	Rocky IV	|	Pocahontas	|	The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe	|	Inside Out
5	|	Cocoon	|	Ace Ventura 2	|	Wedding Crashers	|	Furious 7
6	|	Witness	|	Casper	|	Charlie and the Chocolate Factory	|	American Sniper
7	|	The Goonies	|	Die Hard with a Vengeance	|	Batman Begins	|	Minions
8	|	Police Academy 2	|	Crimson Tide	|	Madagascar	|	Mockingjay - Part 2
9	|	Fletch	|	GoldenEye	|	Mr. & Mrs. Smith	|	The Martian
10	|	A View to a Kill	|	Waterworld	|	Hitch	|	Cinderella

Some films stand out as classics like Back to the Future and Apollo 13, but 1985 also has Rocky IV and Police Academy 2.

HEY LYING FUCK NUGGET!! IF YOU ARE GOING TO QUOTE ME, THEN POST WHAT I POSTED AND NOT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE POSTED!! I NEVER SAID WHAT YOU "QUOTED"!

Whats wrong with Rocky IV? Great movie.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 08, 2024, 06:28:01 PMHEY LYING FUCK NUGGET!! IF YOU ARE GOING TO QUOTE ME, THEN POST WHAT I POSTED AND NOT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE POSTED!! I NEVER SAID WHAT YOU "QUOTED"!

My apologies. I messed up with cut-and-paste there. I've fixed attribution in the post.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2024, 09:15:57 PMWhich brings us to the next question, what can be done? Can we (the royal we) do it?

IMHO what we need is a filter, someone or several someones to go find the good stuff and help both the public find it and the creator to sell it.

I think we can do it, and as soon as I figure out OBS Studio I'm going to start a podcast for that. Also need a co-host(s) in the same time zone or close enough.

I'm not sure if there's anything we can do.  Filtering is a fine idea but I don't know if it's even possible given the sheer number of products on offer.  On one hand, the barrier of entry is practically non-existent.  On the other, products can hang around on the internet for a long time even if practically no one buys them.  So new products, many of them with marginal value at best, are constantly being added while unsuccessful products are, for the most, not removed.  After years of this, there are hundreds of thousands of products available. 

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 08, 2024, 03:58:47 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 08, 2024, 03:13:32 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on September 08, 2024, 01:33:28 PMNothing to add, but that was really insightful.  Good post.

Thanks!  Hey, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every once in a while...

And now we know why Eirikrautha takes his disbabled rodent to the urinal with him...

Nah, I'll leave you at home...

People here are probably aware that my game is an 80s-themed game.  I didn't think sandbox adventuring with an entire over-the-top decade was a super-niche, but I guess it is.  I read this entire thread and affirm some of the comments.

On the concept of "heartbreaker" games, David Johansen said that it's only a heartbreaker if you invest a lot of money in it, have high hopes, and go broke.  I also agree with him that the market is oversaturated.

I think that having high hopes, especially unrealistic or unverified high hopes, leads to overinvesting.

Kyle Aaron told of an author who had little success for a while, but over the years, wrote so much content, that as he gained an audience, new readers were interested in his vast back-catalogue.  This is interesting, as I just had my biggest sale from someone who just showed interest in my RPG, and bought 2x of my full catalog.

JHKim makes an excellent point: Everyone and their sister seem to have made their own RPG.  There are so many RPGs and many of them have enough material for a lifetime of play.  There are only so many RPG players, so the hobby itself is sort of a niche of its own.  How many games can they play?  I know some people, a large number, buy RPGS that they never play.  That must indicate that there's more material out there than is practical.  Another thing that he said is that he loves "Dead RPGs".  I understand that.  Something is different with a game that is no longer producing new material.  I love and play many defunct CCGs for that reason.  It's a fixed canon.  With "deaD" RPGs, if they produced enough material, or at least had rich lore and/or setting, that should be enough for an imaginative GM to have a lifetime of play available.

So, Box Crayon Tales summed it up this way: Ttrpgs are basically the old adage "don't go into writing as your job, go into it as a hobby."

That's exactly what I did!  I wanted to play a teen drama game in a 1980s setting, and do it my way, and saw there was no game out there like it.  So I thought, make my own.  Also, I saw that as an empty niche, but one that may interest others if such a game existed, so I made it available commercially.  I do modest promotion, and make modules that broaden the game's appeal, but it's always the kind of game that I want to play.  And, if other people like it too, that's great.  But if no one does, it's not much skin off my back, and my low-production runs might make them a collectible novelty in the future.  I make the game not expecting to get rich, but making the game I couldn't find, and happy if others purchase the product and share in my enjoyment.

On Sturgeon's Law, I think we're experiencing Sturgeon's law on steroids!  Yes, there is more of everything these days of democratized media, but I think the percentage of quality stuff, and I'm talking the writing, is lower.  I find less I want to watch now than I do on Tubi.  I love older TV, and with practically all of the older decades available now, good and poor, I prefer even bad classic TV to stuff today with high production values.  We're currently in a Fecal Age of Television.

And why do companies hold on to "defunct IPs" until they're no longer viable.  I agree 100% with Box Crayon Tales' assessment: "It's absolutely stupid that apathetic corpos can just squat on their abandonware IPs until 2095, when all the fans are long dead. Who does that benefit?!"  I lost interest in the one RPG I've been into: The Fantasy Trip, and picked up Star Frontiers.  This has potential to face a revival, but Wizards locked it up.  In a way, that's great, since they can't destroy it like they did to D&D.  But if they freed it to someone who cares, that would be awesome.

Explorer Wizard sums it all up:

QuoteFor those who think everything is crap-if that is the case then create your own stuff. I do it all the time. I create stuff for my own enjoyment and to share with my players. Beyond that, I have enough rpg material already. So when I see a lot of crap being released I just shrug and keep going.

Well, I've been all over the place, but the big takeaway is, make material with your own passion and interest in mind.  Have fun with it.  Make it the game YOU want to play.  Share it with the public, while keeping your day job.  If others enjoy your work and pay you money for it, even better.  If you beat the odds and it becomes your primary source of income, that's totally mint!  I hope that is your fate!  But make your RPG with intent that it brings you fortune, and you're likely going to not enjoy your work, and face a heartbreak.

(PS: Speilberg's 2005 War of the Words is an indication that Hollywood is out of ideas and recycle good ones from the past, and they're better off not taking a classic and making it fecal.)

Right, I'm not into fantasy like D&D. It's oversaturated and I'm burned out on the genre. It's just gotten repetitive and annoying more than anything else. I've already seen all the most creative settings the genre has to offer. I already know all the classic heroes. Aragorn, Conan, the Nameless One, Elric...

Other genres are much worse off

Something to consider is that not everything needs a new RPG made for it. Right now, I'm seeing a lot of RPGs being made for solitaire play which is just an attempt to cash in on an emergent niche market, especially since all you really need is a supplement of rules to cover solitaire play in an already existing game system. Newer different RPGs are not needed as much as new adventures which take those RPGs into new gameplay.

A fantasy coffee shop adventure isn't what I'd like play, but you cannot say that it isn't a new direction with different gaming possibilities.

EDIT: I'm reading through Prison of the Hated Pretender by Gus L tonight to clear my head before sleep. At first glance it looks like a well graphically designed adventure that isn't special, but I'm getting more and more interested now in the writing. Take this quote:

QuoteRumors are a reward for players who interact with the setting and investigate locations they aim to plunder.

If you have GM'd for any length of time, you understand this instinctually. Yet I have never seen it written down like that. It is succinct and offers a clarity to the use of a tool for GMs. That's good stuff.

There is a lot of crap out there, it leads you to where there are donkeys as long as you are looking.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 08, 2024, 10:32:02 PMSomething to consider is that not everything needs a new RPG made for it. Right now, I'm seeing a lot of RPGs being made for solitaire play which is just an attempt to cash in on an emergent niche market, especially since all you really need is a supplement of rules to cover solitaire play in an already existing game system. Newer different RPGs are not needed as much as new adventures which take those RPGs into new gameplay.

Having played a ton of 5 Parsecs (solo RPG lite wargame) I disagree. A system designed for solo play, especially on the combat front, needs to take into account that there's one person running everything. Either the game has to scale down to one character, or be able to accomodate one player running multiple characters and NPC enemies. Not every system can do that out of the box.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 09, 2024, 07:19:22 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 08, 2024, 10:32:02 PMSomething to consider is that not everything needs a new RPG made for it. Right now, I'm seeing a lot of RPGs being made for solitaire play which is just an attempt to cash in on an emergent niche market, especially since all you really need is a supplement of rules to cover solitaire play in an already existing game system. Newer different RPGs are not needed as much as new adventures which take those RPGs into new gameplay.

Having played a ton of 5 Parsecs (solo RPG lite wargame) I disagree. A system designed for solo play, especially on the combat front, needs to take into account that there's one person running everything. Either the game has to scale down to one character, or be able to accomodate one player running multiple characters and NPC enemies. Not every system can do that out of the box.

Yet solo play options have been available and used since 0D&D with the Random Dungeon Generator. I'd even go so far as to say that if a RPG can't handle the spectrum of play from solitaire to one-on-one to group play, then it isn't a worthwhile RPG. In the terms of the OP, the niche of solo only play is a niche of a niche of a niche (niche cubed?).

I definitely think that universal systems are underutilized and more valuable than making a new system for every new game. D20 Modern in the 2000s was the de facto universal game for everything that wasn't D&D. Despite its flaws I think it did very well at bringing players together and introducing them to new genres and premises they would otherwise never think of playing.

Nowadays everything is so fractured. If I want to play something like d20 modern's Thunderball Rally (1970s racing-themed action movies with animal sidekicks) or Hijinx (hanna barbera cartoons where meddling kids and their animal sidekick solve mysteries), then the only option I found thus far was Spirit of '77.

As something like Hijinx shows, it's not inordinately difficult to repurpose a system initially designed to represent the comically macho machine gun slaughter scene in Predator to instead handle child-friendly slapstick like that seen in Scooby Doo.

Meh, why do you need a new game? d20 Modern still exists.

Here is the SRD for it, including the SRD for Urban Arcana and d20 Future.

This idea that only games that are currently being "supported" can possibly be played is a silly standard for a hobby where the core of consists of physically printed books.

People are still playing Basic, 1e, 2e, and 3e using their original books (not retroclones).m

The argument that your only option for Thunderball Rally or Hijinx is to use the Spirit of '77 system is invalid.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 09, 2024, 09:31:27 AMD20 Modern in the 2000s was the de facto universal game for everything that wasn't D&D.

I participated in several gaming groups across 3 states and they included the staff of three different gaming stores during 2001-2015. None of them ever touched D20 Modern or spoke of anyone that did, so I reject your theory.

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 09, 2024, 10:26:28 AMMeh, why do you need a new game? d20 Modern still exists.

Here is the SRD for it, including the SRD for Urban Arcana and d20 Future.

This idea that only games that are currently being "supported" can possibly be played is a silly standard for a hobby where the core of consists of physically printed books.

People are still playing Basic, 1e, 2e, and 3e using their original books (not retroclones).m

The argument that your only option for Thunderball Rally or Hijinx is to use the Spirit of '77 system is invalid.

Not to mention that Spirit of '77 is for emulating certain type's of movies, and that you can still find those minigames floating in the web.