Inspired by the discussion about Venger's woes.

We've long called ANY Fantasy RPG a heartbreaker.I don't disagree.

We also seem to think that you can paint yourself in a corner if you pick a niche within a niche within a niche and don't diversify your offerings. I agree.

So, the question is: Is there a sweet spot or is it more about marketing, networking and growing a name/brand?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 04, 2024, 11:38:40 PMWe've long called ANY Fantasy RPG a heartbreaker.I don't disagree.

I very disagree with this idiotic notion.

Alot of RPGs are just there. They were never made to "beat" D&D. Someone just had an ideas for an RPG and took a shot at publishing. Thats the vast majority.

Sure there are more than a few over the decades that touted themselves as better. But 99% of them are long gone.

The concept of the Heartbreaker died with the creation of the OSR.

It's easier to sell, if it is at least somewhat similar to a previously proven product.  Make stuff that seems familiar, to people who have shown, that they like to buy RPG products. 

Ex: Not just a vocal minority.  People who want to spend their money, on your stuff.  "Here's my money.  Please take it."

Ex: WOTC is leaving money on the table.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 04, 2024, 11:38:40 PMSo, the question is: Is there a sweet spot or is it more about marketing, networking and growing a name/brand?

Probably a little column A, little column B.

If you're starting out trying to break into contemporary RPG publication, you're probably best advised to keep your overhead/expectations low, especially if what you're doing is very different from what's already out there. It also seems like people who start their career by writing a new game tend to be less successful than people who first build a name for themselves writing support products for existing games. I'm sure it exists, but I can't think of an example of a new designer coming out of the gate with an original game and being a notable success.

Yeah, writing new rpgs is a crapshoot. That's why I'm more interested in writing prose fiction imagining the kind of games I'd like to play but never will. It's way easier to get people to read your short fiction than to play your game. Reading positive comments gives a nice endorphin rush. Plus, you can build a community that way and later on make an rpg spin-off someday.

I don't think there is a clear formula.

I was impressed with the results of OSE, being a copy of B/X even to things that I consider typos/mistakes. OTOH some games like DCC were successful by being quite quirky.

I put an OSE label to my latest book hoping it would reach a maximum number of people since OSE is so popular, but I'm not sure it made any difference.

So, is it more about marketing, networking and growing a name/brand?

Yes, I think so.

I think it's really only a heart breaker if you invest a lot of money, have high hopes and go broke.

That said, I think the market is moribund and saturate and D&D could be reduced to a Candy Land board and the fans would still rabidly defend it.

Quote from: strollofturtle on September 04, 2024, 11:44:52 PMThe concept of the Heartbreaker died with the creation of the OSR.

wow. How edgy. Don't quit your day job.

To the OP:  It's a little of both. You can make a niche game within a niche community. But I think you have to be aggressive in promoting your game to produce the numbers so it can sustain you and your business.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 04, 2024, 11:38:40 PMWe've long called ANY Fantasy RPG a heartbreaker.I don't disagree.

Heartbreaker stuck because it was coined in an era of limited shelf and warehouse space. Publishers competed for those space and thus projects that had little to no chance in that arena but also had a ton of creative and monetary investment looked futile thus the label stuck.

This is no longer the case and now projects pretty much rise and fall on their own merits and the work the author puts in. There can still be an overinvestment, but if one is willing to recalibrate expectations, you can recover and bootstrap back into something viable.

However, the incentive to undertake the bootstap may not be there if the author cannot realize the product in the form they desire. For example, the author strongly feels that their work has to be full-color illustrated layouts.

That being said, I think the idea of a heartbreaker was a product of a particular time no longer relevant.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 04, 2024, 11:38:40 PMWe also seem to think that you can paint yourself in a corner if you pick a niche within a niche within a niche and don't diversify your offerings. I agree.

So, the question is: Is there a sweet spot or is it more about marketing, networking and growing a name/brand?

RPGs have a setting, however loosely defined. Unless you are focusing your work on being a generic toolkit system, it is impossible to escape defining some type of setting that you are writing from. Even toolkit systems generally start somewhere like Hero System with superheroics, GURPS with realistic man to man combat, Savage Worlds with pulp adventures.

Because there is a setting there always the potential of there being more to the story than the typical genre expectations. Thus, the trick is to figure what more is there and expand that

Case in point the Expanse book series. Each book of The Expanse, while taking place in the same strongly defined setting, also drew in different science fiction subgenres. Finally, winding up the series with a grand epic centered on a space empire evoking the spirit of Asimov's Foundation and other golden age space empires.

Since "heartbreaker" is from Ron Edwards, there's also the element that he felt sad when people made fantasy games because they weren't doing it in his super special GNS "narrativist" storygame way. They were wasting all their good ideas on trying to beat D&D instead of making an indie pile for the audience of The Forge. Money and popularity were secondary.

@Everybody that has replied so far:

I'm not asking for myself, but thought that the discussion (in a more generic way instead of focusing on Venger woes) was worth having.

I'm doing the writing, layout and even cover art, First game out (probably this month or the first week of October) is my Totally-Not-ScoobyDoo, no interior art unless I manage to do it myself and then very little (mainly for the classes if any).

For my more "serious" games the plan is to have everything done except the art and THEN do the crowdfunding for the art, each baker gets a no art pdf of the game right away to show the game IS finished.

Those games ARE mostly Pulp games with different genre/settings but compatible with each other so in the end you have a huge playground.

(No, Pulp isn't a genre).

So in a way I'm painting myself in a niche within a niche, on the other hand Sword & Planet + Mistery Men + totally not Tarzan + Hollow Earth + totally not Flash Gordon isn't much of a small corner IMHO.

Marketing may be considered significant, but if the game itself is a piece of crap, then it is just lipstick on a pig.

Good games and adventures may not have great marketing, but word of mouth about enjoyable game sessions will give that product a very long tail of sales.

Quote from: blackstone on September 05, 2024, 09:47:24 AM

Quote from: strollofturtle on September 04, 2024, 11:44:52 PMThe concept of the Heartbreaker died with the creation of the OSR.

wow. How edgy. Don't quit your day job.

Oh yeah, it's  so fucking edgy to point out that a term coined for rpgs that failed because they're amateur houseruled versions of D&D stopped being relevant when a bunch of people found success with their houseruled versions of D&D. That's not just common sense or anything 🙄

I know of an authour, John Michael Greer. who writes in two relatively obscure fields - occult magic, and talking about the coming deindustrial future, and he said that each time he writes he gets a few sales, but that he also gets a little uptick in sales of previous works, as people who buy Book X by JMG decide to also buy Book Y by JMG. He said that this "long tail" took fifteen years to get thick enough that his wife no longer had to do paid work (she had some long-term illness).

In the meantime, he just kept pumping out books. I'm not sure how many he's got, but it must be over 100. Write 2-3 x 300 page books a year for 15 years. Listen to the feedback you get, both explicit (editors, the more intelligent reviewers) and implicit (sales!) and improve and alter appropriate. Then see how successful you are then.

In my own professional field of fitness it's similar. There's this strongman and gym owner Stevie Pulcinella who says, "I've never seen a gym bro call another gym bro over and say, "hey bro - let me tell you a secret. I'm gonna lift some real fuckin' heavy weights and eat a lot of good food for about ten years and see if I build any muscle. But don't tell nobody. Secret.""

I don't think they're "heartbreakers" because they're the niche of a niche so much as that people write one or two, don't get an instant hit like JK Rowling did, and so give up. But if the person just kept pumping the writing out for 10+ years and listening to feedback, I think probably some good things might happen.