Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 28, 2024, 07:13:43 AMI think there must of been a great many groups that used the B/X or BECMI basic mechanics and options such as classes, spells, and magic items from AD&D. All that stuff is so compatible it was ideal to mix and match.

Well here's a secret: I don't think any of us (people I hung out with) really knew how to play AD&D by-the-book. We just extrapolated D&D for some stuff and ignored things that bogged the game down. So, yes, there was definitely a lot of BECMI influence on our AD&D game, but it wasn't intentional, just a product of not really understanding half the rules.

But you gotta remember I was in junior high at the time, so what older/college age people did I cannot say.

Quote from: Brad on August 27, 2024, 08:37:12 PM

Quote from: S'mon on August 27, 2024, 06:06:38 PMI've spoken with Blake. He hasn't actually read Moldvay Basic he said, only OSE, so I suggested he go read it. As currently his stuff reads a bit "journalistic" - not a compliment.

"I'm a journalist, I don't use original sources!"

Anyway, to reiterate what a few there have said, I started with BECMI and graduated to AD&D as soon as I could. Everyone I know did. Whoever keeps writing articles like this is using navelgazing, retroactive bullshit anecdotes that bear no resemblance to reality. One I guy played with had all the D&D stuff outside of the boxed sets but he was a massive Mystara fan.

I won't pretend The BECMI and the RC and B/X aren't arguably better in some ways than AD&D, because they are, but can we please stop pretending the erudite and sophisticated were playing those games while us rubes moved on to AD&D?

Considering the wargaming roots, if you actually played original D&D you were probably in your 20s at the time and very likely adopted AD&D right away. Basic was made for newer/younger players, with the clear intent that they would "graduate" to Advanced.

I'm sure there were people who stuck with B/X or BECMI, but it was probably because that's what they already had and AD&D was more expensive.

The navelgazing is likely coming from people who are actually too young to have even played BECMI and likely didn't touch D&D until 3E.

Quote from: Corolinth on August 29, 2024, 12:48:58 AMConsidering the wargaming roots, if you actually played original D&D you were probably in your 20s at the time and very likely adopted AD&D right away. Basic was made for newer/younger players, with the clear intent that they would "graduate" to Advanced.

I'm sure there were people who stuck with B/X or BECMI, but it was probably because that's what they already had and AD&D was more expensive.

The navelgazing is likely coming from people who are actually too young to have even played BECMI and likely didn't touch D&D until 3E.

I'd say if you actually played original D&D then you probably started playing before any Basic edition existed, and chances are you moved to AD&D as soon as it was published (also before Basic), and you very likely never played Basic in any form.

Quote from: Corolinth on August 29, 2024, 12:48:58 AM

Quote from: Brad on August 27, 2024, 08:37:12 PM

Quote from: S'mon on August 27, 2024, 06:06:38 PMI've spoken with Blake. He hasn't actually read Moldvay Basic he said, only OSE, so I suggested he go read it. As currently his stuff reads a bit "journalistic" - not a compliment.

"I'm a journalist, I don't use original sources!"

Anyway, to reiterate what a few there have said, I started with BECMI and graduated to AD&D as soon as I could. Everyone I know did. Whoever keeps writing articles like this is using navelgazing, retroactive bullshit anecdotes that bear no resemblance to reality. One I guy played with had all the D&D stuff outside of the boxed sets but he was a massive Mystara fan.

I won't pretend The BECMI and the RC and B/X aren't arguably better in some ways than AD&D, because they are, but can we please stop pretending the erudite and sophisticated were playing those games while us rubes moved on to AD&D?

Considering the wargaming roots, if you actually played original D&D you were probably in your 20s at the time and very likely adopted AD&D right away. Basic was made for newer/younger players, with the clear intent that they would "graduate" to Advanced.

I'm sure there were people who stuck with B/X or BECMI, but it was probably because that's what they already had and AD&D was more expensive.

The navelgazing is likely coming from people who are actually too young to have even played BECMI and likely didn't touch D&D until 3E.

I'd say that sounds accurate.

Quote from: Zalman on August 29, 2024, 07:47:09 AM

Quote from: Corolinth on August 29, 2024, 12:48:58 AMConsidering the wargaming roots, if you actually played original D&D you were probably in your 20s at the time and very likely adopted AD&D right away. Basic was made for newer/younger players, with the clear intent that they would "graduate" to Advanced.

I'm sure there were people who stuck with B/X or BECMI, but it was probably because that's what they already had and AD&D was more expensive.

The navelgazing is likely coming from people who are actually too young to have even played BECMI and likely didn't touch D&D until 3E.

I'd say if you actually played original D&D then you probably started playing before any Basic edition existed, and chances are you moved to AD&D as soon as it was published (also before Basic), and you very likely never played Basic in any form.

This is what I was trying to articulate, yes.

Quote from: Zalman on August 29, 2024, 07:47:09 AM

Quote from: Corolinth on August 29, 2024, 12:48:58 AMConsidering the wargaming roots, if you actually played original D&D you were probably in your 20s at the time and very likely adopted AD&D right away. Basic was made for newer/younger players, with the clear intent that they would "graduate" to Advanced.

I'm sure there were people who stuck with B/X or BECMI, but it was probably because that's what they already had and AD&D was more expensive.

The navelgazing is likely coming from people who are actually too young to have even played BECMI and likely didn't touch D&D until 3E.

I'd say if you actually played original D&D then you probably started playing before any Basic edition existed, and chances are you moved to AD&D as soon as it was published (also before Basic), and you very likely never played Basic in any form.

That's more than likely the case. In fact, Holmes D&D only went to 3rd level and it even says in the preface:

QuotePlayers who desire to go beyond the basic game are directed to the ADVANCED DUNGEON & DRAGONS books

Fighting Men:

QuoteAfter they reach the fourth level of experience they also increase their ability to get hits on
an opponent, but experience levels that high are not discussed in this book and the reader is referred to the more complete rules in ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS.

Thieves:

QuoteThere are special rules for halflings, dwarves and elves who wish to be thieves — these are given in ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS

Additional Character Classes:

QuoteThere are a number of other character types which
are detailed in ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS.
There are sub-classes of the four basic classes. They
are: paladins and rangers (fighting men), illusionists
and witches (magic-users), monks and druids (clerics),
and assassins (thieves). There are half elves. Special
characteristics for dwarven, elven, and halfling thieves
are given. In addition, rules for characters who possess
the rare talent of psionic ability are detailed. However,
for a beginning campaign these additions are not
necessary, and players should accustom themselves to
regular play before adding further complexities.

Character Alignment system is Law/Chaos, Neutral, good/evil. just like AD&D.

So, from 1977 to 1981, there was a "pipeline" from playing Basic D&D to playing AD&D.

That all changed when the Moldvay D&D (aka B/X) hit the market in '81. This is when the pipeline ends and Basic D&D became it's own game.

Now why is that?

I can only speculate. But from what I know now of the history of the game, I would think it was partly legal and partly market driven.

In the time period indicated above, this was also the time where you had the legal battle between Arneson and TSR/Gygax. One of the outcomes of the legal issues would appear to rewrite Basic D&D enough to be it's own game. Hence the creation of B/X and retiring the Holmes edition. I speculate Holmes D&D was in the eyes of the lawyers too close to Arneson's version.

The other question would be "why not just drop Basic D&D and go on with AD&D?"

I would speculate it all has to do with money. D&D was just becoming known to a wider audience. The name recognition was there. Plus, there was enough regular fans of Basic D&D to justify making it it's own game. Also by doing the rewrite, TSR was no longer obligated to give royalties to Arneson. B/X was just different enough to be it's own game.

Ultimately TSR was able to keep the D&D name, rewrite Basic to be it's own game system, and have AD&D as Gygax's version to promote.

Quote from: blackstone on August 29, 2024, 09:05:43 AMThe other question would be "why not just drop Basic D&D and go on with AD&D?"

Because the pipeline was a good idea. I was about to say necessary but that isn't exactly true. That's me oversimplifying for brevity's sake.

I learned to read partly with my older brother's Mentzer red box Basic D&D. First edition AD&D has too many moving parts. It's not that the math is too difficult, but rather there are too many exceptions and caveats that have you using this rule versus that rule. It's not exactly that you use different subsystems depending on circumstances, but it's something like that. Second edition AD&D has less of this, but still retains some. Third edition is more complex, but also more consistent in its complexity, which makes it easier to follow.

As an example, consider exceptional strength. Only fighters get this. Why? Thieves don't get exceptional dexterity, wizards don't get exceptional strength, so why do fighters get exceptional strength? I don't recall whether 1E went up to 25, but 2E did, and that makes it even more nonsensical. Why are fighters the only class that have an ability score between 18 and 19? The point isn't to gripe about exceptional strength, it's to explain what I mean by consistency in complexity.

This rules complexity is not an insurmountable hurdle, but there's an age below which I didn't have the brain power to handle it. I'm also smarter than the average bear. AD&D is only salable to people above a certain age range who, by that point, have probably acquired other hobbies.

Now let's go back to me learning to read with Red Box Basic. I wanted to play D&D before I was actually able to read because there was an appeal to the bright red box with the warrior fighting a dragon. Don't forget, Gary played D&D with his kids. He had to have known that he needed/wanted a version of his game that was accessible to children.

Quote from: blackstone on August 29, 2024, 09:05:43 AMThat all changed when the Moldvay D&D (aka B/X) hit the market in '81. This is when the pipeline ends and Basic D&D became it's own game.

Now why is that?

I can only speculate. But from what I know now of the history of the game, I would think it was partly legal and partly market driven.

You don't have to speculate. It is all laid in detail in Jon Peterson's Game Wizards. In a nutshell Holmes Basic D&D was the best selling product TSR had in 1979. AD&D three books combined did outsell the Basic Set however the Basic Set was the best selling single product they had.

In addition, the first Arneson vs. TSR lawsuit was in full swing before the Moldvay/Cook Basic/Expert set entered development. A gross simplification of the issue is that Arneson received a 1/3 of the royalties TSR paid that Gygax did.

So when it came to D&D vs. AD&D TSR chose "Support all of the above" as their answer.

QuoteThe original *D&D* boxed set had, since its release more than five years before, sold just below 60,000 copies. Its first supplement, *Greyhawk*, could claim 50,000 sales by this point, and the other three supplements more than half that. The reigning unit sales champion was the boxed *Basic Set*, which had, since its mid-1977 release two years before, already moved over 70,000 units, and a further 12,000 copies of the standalone *Basic* rulebook. But combined, the *Advanced* game books had already eclipsed that: the *Players Handbook* had been out for roughly one year by the summer of 1979 and had already sold almost exactly 50,000 copies. Then add to that 47,000 for *Monster Manual* sales, and consider the imminent release of a third volume, the *Dungeon Masters Guide*, which boasted an initial run of 44,000 books that had been pre-ordered before the first of August. Accessories had also become popular: each of the six modules released during the 1978 summer convention season sold in the vicinity of 10,000 copies over the year that followed, at $4.50 to $6 apiece, which added a tidy sum to the *AD&D* total. And although the *Tomb of Horrors* and *In Search of the Unknown* modules entered the market a half year later than that first round of six, their sales only lagged a couple thousand copies behind by mid-1979. All told, very nearly a half million units of *D&D* product had traded to date.

QuoteAs impressive as the growth of D&D had been, it is important to tally these sums now because of the incredible transformation that D&D sales were about to undergo as the summer of 1979 drew to a close. Take just the flagship Basic Set as a representative example: in its two-year lifetime, up to the end of the second quarter of 1979, it had sold 73,358 copies. But in just the third quarter of 1979 it would add to that 33,715 more sales, nearly 12,000 a month, a 45 percent increase to its overall total. In the fourth quarter alone, it sold a further 93,796 copies, a sum that comes close to equaling all previous sales of the product. And then the next quarter, TSR would move a stunning 139,857 copies of Basic Set, which was now on a trajectory to reach nearly a half million sales in just one year. Without exaggeration, the summer of 1979 marked an inflection point that would change not just the role-playing games hobby, but the entire games industry. So, what happened?

As an OD&D player, let me assure you there's not such thing as ADVANCED D&D...AD&D was just a cleaned up, expanded and repackaged version of all the OD&D books.

Of course, calling it ADVANCED was marketing genius. Maybe one of the greatest branding moves ever.

Back in the day, I met very few people who ever played AD&D RAW and in actual play, most of what happened at our table (and almost every con game) was much closer to B/X.

So its no surprise OSE has a strong audience now.