Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 27, 2024, 01:16:34 PMIf I were to write down MY perfect version of D&D it would be OSE but without race as class, a minimal skill list, only one ST and only to 10th level.

Well it only to 5th level but I do believe I check off everything else.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/337515/the-majestic-fantasy-rpg-basic-rules

And late next year I will release the full version which focuses on the level 1 to 12 range although to be fair there is no upper limit. But I consider anything above 12 to be Olympic level or Nobel Prize level of skill and ability so it only rarely comes up.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 27, 2024, 01:12:14 PMStreamlined like B/X but full of details and options like 1e. No other version of D&D managed to be a straightforward as B/X IMO; I often call it "minimum viable D&D".

My counterpoint would be Swords & Wizardry, Core, 2nd Printing but we are only talking inches apart in terms of mechanical differences.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on August 27, 2024, 11:22:55 AMPet peeve or failure of perception on my part but a lot of so called osr stuff appears to somehow be, to me at least, incomplete or unfinished or sparse perhaps...dunno can't put my finger on it exactly. I know I'm not the target audience for shadowdark for example, but i can't help but feel that if i published a book in big font like that with such short descriptions of things as the few examples of the material that i've seen that most would call it an incomplete fantasy heartbreaker and accuse me of trying to hide behind "rulings not rules" as cover when the truth is i just didn't put more than two sentences of thought into describing how a mechanic interacts with the rest of the system.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 27, 2024, 12:04:08 PMYou don't need DLC, what you need is to make those rulings.

My opinion is that the issue is that folks publishing need to explain how to make rulings better. The explanation doesn't need to make additional mechanics but focus on how to use what there.

And it so happens I wrote such a chapter. And it has come up often enough that I turned it into a free download.
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/When%20to%20make%20a%20Ruling.pdf

Quote from: estar on August 27, 2024, 01:55:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 27, 2024, 01:16:34 PMIf I were to write down MY perfect version of D&D it would be OSE but without race as class, a minimal skill list, only one ST and only to 10th level.

Well it only to 5th level but I do believe I check off everything else.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/337515/the-majestic-fantasy-rpg-basic-rules

And late next year I will release the full version which focuses on the level 1 to 12 range although to be fair there is no upper limit. But I consider anything above 12 to be Olympic level or Nobel Prize level of skill and ability so it only rarely comes up.

And it's only $9.99 for the 204 pages PDF.

Quote from: estar on August 27, 2024, 02:00:45 PM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on August 27, 2024, 11:22:55 AMPet peeve or failure of perception on my part but a lot of so called osr stuff appears to somehow be, to me at least, incomplete or unfinished or sparse perhaps...dunno can't put my finger on it exactly. I know I'm not the target audience for shadowdark for example, but i can't help but feel that if i published a book in big font like that with such short descriptions of things as the few examples of the material that i've seen that most would call it an incomplete fantasy heartbreaker and accuse me of trying to hide behind "rulings not rules" as cover when the truth is i just didn't put more than two sentences of thought into describing how a mechanic interacts with the rest of the system.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 27, 2024, 12:04:08 PMYou don't need DLC, what you need is to make those rulings.

My opinion is that the issue is that folks publishing need to explain how to make rulings better. The explanation doesn't need to make additional mechanics but focus on how to use what there.

And it so happens I wrote such a chapter. And it has come up often enough that I turned it into a free download.
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/When%20to%20make%20a%20Ruling.pdf

Especially important for total newcomers. Not so much for people that have been playing for a few years. Especially since NO game can have a rule to cover absolutely everything any player on every table can get up to.

To me, the appeal of OSR games is that they DON'T provide mechanics for everything. B/X was pretty bare bones mechanics wise but it was all we needed to run some great campaigns. I believe the issues surrounding accusations of OSR sparseness come from those who began gaming after the paradigm shift in rules presentation. Originally the rules presented were sparse with the understanding that anything not against the rules was theoretically possible. Once rules became more bloated and "complete" the paradigm was turned upside down and (mis) interpreted to mean that anything not in the RAW was forbidden. Although this was never truly the case, a great many seemed to have that attitude that came into the hobby later. There will never be a mechanical formula that can account for everything the fevered imaginations of players can come up with. Leaving such things up the GM is exactly how they should be handled.

Quote from: estar on August 27, 2024, 01:56:34 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 27, 2024, 01:12:14 PMStreamlined like B/X but full of details and options like 1e. No other version of D&D managed to be a straightforward as B/X IMO; I often call it "minimum viable D&D".

My counterpoint would be Swords & Wizardry, Core, 2nd Printing but we are only talking inches apart in terms of mechanical differences.

Ah yes, noticed I mentioned "no other version of D&D", meaning "official" D&D.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 27, 2024, 01:16:34 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 27, 2024, 01:12:14 PMSometimes I think the entire evolution of D&D is trying to create a decent middle ground between B/X and AD&D.

Streamlined like B/X but full of details and options like 1e. No other version of D&D managed to be a straightforward as B/X IMO; I often call it "minimum viable D&D".

If I were to write down MY perfect version of D&D it would be OSE but without race as class, a minimal skill list, only one ST and only to 10th level.

Same here. Curiously, I DID write such a game, but used six saves; after that, I reduced it to a single save.

Still using it in my current sandbox campaign. But I haven't managed to update it.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/229046/dark-fantasy-basic-player-s-guide?coverSizeTestPhase2=true&word-variants=true

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 27, 2024, 04:02:01 PM

Quote from: estar on August 27, 2024, 01:56:34 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 27, 2024, 01:12:14 PMStreamlined like B/X but full of details and options like 1e. No other version of D&D managed to be a straightforward as B/X IMO; I often call it "minimum viable D&D".

My counterpoint would be Swords & Wizardry, Core, 2nd Printing but we are only talking inches apart in terms of mechanical differences.

Ah yes, noticed I mentioned "no other version of D&D", meaning "official" D&D.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 27, 2024, 01:16:34 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 27, 2024, 01:12:14 PMSometimes I think the entire evolution of D&D is trying to create a decent middle ground between B/X and AD&D.

Streamlined like B/X but full of details and options like 1e. No other version of D&D managed to be a straightforward as B/X IMO; I often call it "minimum viable D&D".

If I were to write down MY perfect version of D&D it would be OSE but without race as class, a minimal skill list, only one ST and only to 10th level.

Same here. Curiously, I DID write such a game, but used six saves; after that, I reduced it to a single save.

Still using it in my current sandbox campaign. But I haven't managed to update it.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/229046/dark-fantasy-basic-player-s-guide?coverSizeTestPhase2=true&word-variants=true

To my shame, I own it but haven't gotten around to reading it.

Quote from: estar on August 27, 2024, 09:58:54 AMAnd also incidentally outselling D&D 5e on DriveThruRPG.

I don't think most of the people buying 5e do so on DT.

Even the becmi boxes by themselves had to me a feeling of being complete, whereas with a lot of this stuff you are sort of left to wonder if you should do it the b/x way or the 2e or 3e way...especially as many of these mix elements from across editions. Passive perception or a 1 in 6 chance as an example.

I've spoken with Blake. He hasn't actually read Moldvay Basic he said, only OSE, so I suggested he go read it. As currently his stuff reads a bit "journalistic" - not a compliment.

Quote from: S'mon on August 27, 2024, 06:06:38 PMI've spoken with Blake. He hasn't actually read Moldvay Basic he said, only OSE, so I suggested he go read it. As currently his stuff reads a bit "journalistic" - not a compliment.

"I'm a journalist, I don't use original sources!"

Anyway, to reiterate what a few there have said, I started with BECMI and graduated to AD&D as soon as I could. Everyone I know did. Whoever keeps writing articles like this is using navelgazing, retroactive bullshit anecdotes that bear no resemblance to reality. One I guy played with had all the D&D stuff outside of the boxed sets but he was a massive Mystara fan.

I won't pretend The BECMI and the RC and B/X aren't arguably better in some ways than AD&D, because they are, but can we please stop pretending the erudite and sophisticated were playing those games while us rubes moved on to AD&D?

Quote from: Brad on August 27, 2024, 08:37:12 PM

Quote from: S'mon on August 27, 2024, 06:06:38 PMI've spoken with Blake. He hasn't actually read Moldvay Basic he said, only OSE, so I suggested he go read it. As currently his stuff reads a bit "journalistic" - not a compliment.

"I'm a journalist, I don't use original sources!"

Anyway, to reiterate what a few there have said, I started with BECMI and graduated to AD&D as soon as I could. Everyone I know did. Whoever keeps writing articles like this is using navelgazing, retroactive bullshit anecdotes that bear no resemblance to reality. One I guy played with had all the D&D stuff outside of the boxed sets but he was a massive Mystara fan.

I won't pretend The BECMI and the RC and B/X aren't arguably better in some ways than AD&D, because they are, but can we please stop pretending the erudite and sophisticated were playing those games while us rubes moved on to AD&D?

I think there must of been a great many groups that used the B/X or BECMI basic mechanics and options such as classes, spells, and magic items from AD&D. All that stuff is so compatible it was ideal to mix and match.

Quote from: estar on August 27, 2024, 01:55:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 27, 2024, 01:16:34 PMIf I were to write down MY perfect version of D&D it would be OSE but without race as class, a minimal skill list, only one ST and only to 10th level.

Well it only to 5th level but I do believe I check off everything else.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/337515/the-majestic-fantasy-rpg-basic-rules

And late next year I will release the full version which focuses on the level 1 to 12 range although to be fair there is no upper limit. But I consider anything above 12 to be Olympic level or Nobel Prize level of skill and ability so it only rarely comes up.

Quote from: estar on August 27, 2024, 01:55:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 27, 2024, 01:16:34 PMIf I were to write down MY perfect version of D&D it would be OSE but without race as class, a minimal skill list, only one ST and only to 10th level.

Well it only to 5th level but I do believe I check off everything else.

For peeps who run such a "low" cap on levels, do you increase the amount of xp required to level up to spread out the advencements, or do you have standard rate and then just "You're done" keep playing?

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 28, 2024, 07:13:43 AM

Quote from: Brad on August 27, 2024, 08:37:12 PM

Quote from: S'mon on August 27, 2024, 06:06:38 PMI've spoken with Blake. He hasn't actually read Moldvay Basic he said, only OSE, so I suggested he go read it. As currently his stuff reads a bit "journalistic" - not a compliment.

"I'm a journalist, I don't use original sources!"

Anyway, to reiterate what a few there have said, I started with BECMI and graduated to AD&D as soon as I could. Everyone I know did. Whoever keeps writing articles like this is using navelgazing, retroactive bullshit anecdotes that bear no resemblance to reality. One I guy played with had all the D&D stuff outside of the boxed sets but he was a massive Mystara fan.

I won't pretend The BECMI and the RC and B/X aren't arguably better in some ways than AD&D, because they are, but can we please stop pretending the erudite and sophisticated were playing those games while us rubes moved on to AD&D?

I think there must of been a great many groups that used the B/X or BECMI basic mechanics and options such as classes, spells, and magic items from AD&D. All that stuff is so compatible it was ideal to mix and match.

Not from my experience.

Just to give you an idea where I'm coming from: I grew up in Omaha, NE. So a pretty decent sized city. The time frame would have been from 1981-89. In that time, there were quite a few gaming clubs, two local game conventions, and 2-3 game stores (Star Realm, Dragon's Lair, and Hobby Town USA).

When it came to playing between the two versions (D&D or AD&D), everyone who played either at a store, a con, or at a game club played AD&D. I never saw anyone play regular D&D.

The reasons?

perception: Basic D&D appeared to be the less "mature" game. It was the "family friendly" version. Not for serious gamers. ADVANCED D&D, just by the name alone, implied more complex and "mature". Heck, pictures in the Monster Manual got that across (succubus anyone?). Thus AD&D was the one the vast majority of serious gamers played.

marketing: some of the points I made when it comes to perception apply here. Also, AD&D was purposely marketed as the superior game. In fact, IIRC the idea was you could either stay with Basic D&D if you started with that OR you could port over to AD&D. But let's be honest, TSR wanted you to buy AD&D because that's where the money was: the books were more expensive.

support: TSR at the time, especially after 1980-81, put more support in AD&D than Basic D&D. Yes, we had BECMI rules come out in '83 and the Gazetteers, but again to be honest, AD&D was the money maker. The number of modules and support material was quite a bit more. Especially 1983 onward where yo had the introduction of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms, which were written for the AD&D rules. Also when it came to convention tournament support, it was AD&D. I never saw a Basic D&D convention tournament in that time frame.

So this is the fact of the matter. even later when 2nd ed came out, AD&D was the king of the castle. Sure, you had Mystara and Hollow World. You had fans for those niche products, but they the outliers, not the norm.