When did each see widespread use, at the table; and when did they not?  I know I've seen many old school maps, laid out with Hex Grids.  BX, BECMI, etc.  I'm also aware that Square Grids have seen tons of use; when not running theater of the mind, at the table.

I know about the wargamming roots, of D&D.

I'd like to hear about the rigid use in some systems, vs the optional use in others; once RPGs broke away from the older war games.  Also, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?

Looking forward to this topic. 

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMI'd like to hear about the rigid use in some systems, vs the optional use in others; once RPGs broke away from the older war games.  Also, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?

Original D&D implied either square grid or open tabletop (i.e. like miniatures).

I think Tunnels & Trolls might have had more theater of the mind. I'd have to look back over it. It had a more abstract combat system, and some solo modules.

SJG's _Melee_ and GDW's _Traveller_ both came out in 1977, and they might be the earliest use of hex grid in RPGs, though hex grids were common in wargames at the time.

As I understand it the use of a hexmap for overland travel was heavily inspired by the Avalon Hill board game Outdoor Survival.

https://www.blackgate.com/2013/07/28/the-secret-supplement-greyhawk-gygax-and-outdoor-survival/

Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2024, 03:40:53 AM

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMI'd like to hear about the rigid use in some systems, vs the optional use in others; once RPGs broke away from the older war games.  Also, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?

...
I think Tunnels & Trolls might have had more theater of the mind. I'd have to look back over it. It had a more abstract combat system, and some solo modules.
...

To quote Original T&T "Each combat is a unique and individual experience that must really be played by ear" (pg. 9) It didn't have movement rules, it did have combat but not combat rounds. So maps would only be used to give an overview. In later editions time handling was added: a combat round takes 2 minutes, a regular round 10 minutes. Still no movement handling in the core rules. But with the length of the combat round that would be silly. As it would be also silly to make an attack roll so a roll simply for possible damage was compared with the result from the enemy.

So no need for grid or hex maps in T&T.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2024, 04:38:56 AMAs I understand it the use of a hexmap for overland travel was heavily inspired by the Avalon Hill board game Outdoor Survival.

https://www.blackgate.com/2013/07/28/the-secret-supplement-greyhawk-gygax-and-outdoor-survival/

Were there any systems or segments of the hobby, that used Hex Maps, instead of Square Grid Maps; for Dungeon Exploration,
Combat, etc.?

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 12:19:26 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2024, 04:38:56 AMAs I understand it the use of a hexmap for overland travel was heavily inspired by the Avalon Hill board game Outdoor Survival.

https://www.blackgate.com/2013/07/28/the-secret-supplement-greyhawk-gygax-and-outdoor-survival/

Were there any systems or segments of the hobby, that used Hex Maps, instead of Square Grid Maps; for Dungeon Exploration,
Combat, etc.?

I don't know. I kind of doubt it. My impression is that they used theater of the mind mostly, with maybe some grid use for combat.

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 12:19:26 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2024, 04:38:56 AMAs I understand it the use of a hexmap for overland travel was heavily inspired by the Avalon Hill board game Outdoor Survival.

https://www.blackgate.com/2013/07/28/the-secret-supplement-greyhawk-gygax-and-outdoor-survival/

Were there any systems or segments of the hobby, that used Hex Maps, instead of Square Grid Maps; for Dungeon Exploration,
Combat, etc.?

Not exactly sure how others might have used hexes long ago, but I have used hexes for outdoor combat playing various editions of classic D&D. Outdoor ranges are expressed in yards vs feet indoors. So for an outdoor combat starting at longer ranges, a hex map with a scale of 10 yards per hex does the trick without requiring a HUGE hex map to be able to utilize missile weapons at range in an outdoor encounter.

Dragon Quest used a hex grid exclusively, including indoors.  Not surprising, since the 1st and 2nd editions were by SPI before TSR bought them out, mainly known for its simulation war games. 

Fantasy Hero came along later (as a spin off from Champions).  It also used hexes exclusively.

I always found hex grids incredibly annoying for any indoor location. So much so that I experimented with using offset squares instead in Fantasy Hero.  Wish I'd thought of it when playing Dragon Quest, as It would have been a lot easier.  Also, since I was making my own mats on poster board, would have been a heck of a lot easier to layout, too.

Offset squares a good compromise for a system that wants to be "all hex" in play, but do a lot of indoor maps.  It's never really caught on, though.  I assume because such mats wouldn't be standard, and about the time it became obvious it was a good choice, we were moving out of the do it yourself era in such gaming aids.  Maybe also because offset squares are a triumph of substance over style, but they look distinctly inelegant.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 19, 2024, 02:39:11 PMOffset squares a good compromise for a system that wants to be "all hex" in play, but do a lot of indoor maps.  It's never really caught on, though.  I assume because such mats wouldn't be standard, and about the time it became obvious it was a good choice, we were moving out of the do it yourself era in such gaming aids.  Maybe also because offset squares are a triumph of substance over style, but they look distinctly inelegant.

A few years aback SJ Games came out with Cardboard Dungeons which supports hexes and squares. Their trick was to squash the hexes a bit in the up and down directions. I was pretty impressed with how well it worked.

https://www.sjgames.com/heroes/#dungeonfloors

Quote from: estar on August 19, 2024, 02:57:35 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 19, 2024, 02:39:11 PMOffset squares a good compromise for a system that wants to be "all hex" in play, but do a lot of indoor maps.  It's never really caught on, though.  I assume because such mats wouldn't be standard, and about the time it became obvious it was a good choice, we were moving out of the do it yourself era in such gaming aids.  Maybe also because offset squares are a triumph of substance over style, but they look distinctly inelegant.

A few years aback SJ Games came out with Cardboard Dungeons which supports hexes and squares. Their trick was to squash the hexes a bit in the up and down directions. I was pretty impressed with how well it worked.

https://www.sjgames.com/heroes/#dungeonfloors

Looks Pretty Cool.  I like it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2024, 02:18:44 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 12:19:26 PMWere there any systems or segments of the hobby, that used Hex Maps, instead of Square Grid Maps; for Dungeon Exploration, Combat, etc.?

I don't know. I kind of doubt it. My impression is that they used theater of the mind mostly, with maybe some grid use for combat.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 19, 2024, 02:39:11 PMDragon Quest used a hex grid exclusively, including indoors.  Not surprising, since the 1st and 2nd editions were by SPI before TSR bought them out, mainly known for its simulation war games. 

Fantasy Hero came along later (as a spin off from Champions).  It also used hexes exclusively.

Dragon Quest and Fantasy Hero were predated by _Melee_ (1977). The 1977 original was a board game of fighting in an arena, but when combined with later games in the series it became a full-fledged RPG - "The Fantasy Trip".



https://thefantasytrip.game/about/

I haven't minded hex maps for indoors. I think square grids tend to make designers/GMs draw exactly 5ft or 10ft wide corridors that only turn at 90 degree angles - and that can be limiting. With hex maps, it's clear from the beginning that the hexes are arbitrary.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2024, 04:38:56 AMAs I understand it the use of a hexmap for overland travel was heavily inspired by the Avalon Hill board game Outdoor Survival.

https://www.blackgate.com/2013/07/28/the-secret-supplement-greyhawk-gygax-and-outdoor-survival/

Indeed, the OD&D rules recommended Outdoor Survival are part of the equipment needed (after the D&D rules themselves but before polyhedral dice) just for the board

Also bear in mind that in the AD&D DMG, they also had rules (at least for flanking and such) for using hex maps in combat instead of squares.

Quote from: JeremyR on August 19, 2024, 05:37:25 PMAlso bear in mind that in the AD&D DMG, they also had rules (at least for flanking and such) for using hex maps in combat instead of squares.

Thanks.  I have that book. 

D&D started in dungeons and drawing a dungeon on graph paper is easy, on a hex paper, less so.