I have been asked to run a one-shot for some friends who, overall, are fairly inexperienced with TTRPGs. They have expressed interest in an Investigation type game, like Call of Cthulhu. However, I think that CoC may be too crunchy for this crowd, especially the big lift of creating characters just for a one-shot. What recommendations do you have for any investigation TTRPG systems that would be easier for inexperienced players to pick up? As the GM, selfishly I'd like to minimize prep time if possible. Thank you.

Quote from: mothman on July 25, 2024, 11:29:07 AMI have been asked to run a one-shot for some friends who, overall, are fairly inexperienced with TTRPGs. They have expressed interest in an Investigation type game, like Call of Cthulhu. However, I think that CoC may be too crunchy for this crowd, especially the big lift of creating characters just for a one-shot. What recommendations do you have for any investigation TTRPG systems that would be easier for inexperienced players to pick up? As the GM, selfishly I'd like to minimize prep time if possible. Thank you.

First, welcome to the forum!

For your question, I love Call of Cthulhu and would lean to using it.

I have learned from painful experience with one offs. First, on the group's first game, don't have them make characters. I usually make characters for the group and they can pick out of the pile which one they want. That way they don't spend the hours it takes to learn the mechanics of making a character. Also, it lets you make sure all the characters are useful and all the needed skills are in the group. For every game system, and especially one offs, I also have a full folder for their game with a quick reference on key parts of the game (initiative, combat, skill checks, etc). I will go through before the game and explain the QRF "This is how init works, here is how to attack/defend, here is how you do a skill check and here is how a task chain works". Plus if you have something special like a chase or something like that, I cover that too.  I also have handouts with each weapon or key equipment the group has will all the pertinent info (narrative and game mechanics). That way everyone sees what they have and that key piece of equipment perfect for the scene isn't lost and ignored on someone's character sheet.

For CoC, I learned to make at least half to 3 / 4 more characters than players. That way they have a good choice in the start, and you have replacements if a PC dies AND you have extra characters to kill (and ramp up the tension and danger) without killing a PC. There is nothing like the look on my daughters or the other players face when I take a NPC picture/info sheet off the table. Then a bit later ask them when the last time they saw / interacted with whoever it was. Then behind the DM screen slowly (and loudly) rip it (or a blank piece of paper if the NPC didn't actually die). They always go into panic mode with that !

Now for the rules. Like I said I lean to CoC, but any skill system will work. I'm running Traveller (with a CoC/Dela Green adventure after every 3 Traveller adventures) and have used Traveller for some great investigation and Heist adventures. So I'd say go for the rules you know the best and use them. However, I will say I have never used a class system so can't say how well it would work to use fighter/thief/mage etc in an investigation.

Regardless of the rules, unless the players are used to investigation games, It may take them a bit to get used to it. Especially if you have an open sandbox type investigation for them. I know my daughters, at first, tended to get decision paralysis or needed the bread crumbs blatantly laid out for them. Be ready to drop some very heavy hints until they figure it out. That is one good rule from CoC that I use in any investigation or heist adventure, The 'Idea Roll'. That is a great rule to help remind the group of that key info that they have but are forgetting/ignoring.

On the other hand be ready for a bad roll to derail the adventure. So, make sure there is more than one way for them to get the info needed. I normally have a list of MUST Get info with at least 3 ways for them to get each bit. Then a list of Good to have but not critical info and make it a little harder for them to get those. Things that will make the investigation easier or give cluses to the strength/weakness to the opponents etc. Then I have bits of cool background info that ads flavor and contest to the investigation without being needed. Plus, foreshadow every chance you get. Oh yeah. avoid red herrings ! They will bite off on that and NEVER get back to the real investigation ! Heck, they will make their own red herrings even without you introducing them !


Hope this helps

My own Spooked, Inc. is meant to be easy to learn and quick-playing. You can use it for a variety of styles, from humorous or satirical to drama and action, and from Cthulhu to X Files to Supernatural to other TV shows like Medium, Miracles, Whitechapel, or Apparitions. It's got advice for using elements of comedy and horror, info on running investigations, lots of rules examples, and a sample adventure. The system uses a dice pool with odds matched against an opposing roll's odds, OR whittling down an over scene difficulty with or without a deadline. Available in both PDF and Softcover. http://rpg.deals/spooked

Quote from: Lurker on July 25, 2024, 08:42:09 PMHope this helps

It does! Thank you. Great info all around.

Quote from: brettmb on July 26, 2024, 01:24:03 PMMy own Spooked, Inc. is meant to be easy to learn and quick-playing. You can use it for a variety of styles, from humorous or satirical to drama and action, and from Cthulhu to X Files to Supernatural to other TV shows like Medium, Miracles, Whitechapel, or Apparitions. It's got advice for using elements of comedy and horror, info on running investigations, lots of rules examples, and a sample adventure. The system uses a dice pool with odds matched against an opposing roll's odds, OR whittling down an over scene difficulty with or without a deadline. Available in both PDF and Softcover. http://rpg.deals/spooked

Thank you! I'll take a look.

i don't think there's a good "system" for investigations.  My success with doing a mystery/investigation game has been knowing how a good mystery is structured and then any game system works.

Here's some published adventures that do a good job that you can learn from:

Thicker than blood - Cyberpunk 2020
Murder on Arcturus Station - Traveller
Noblesse Oblige - Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying

You absolutely can run an investigation in any decent RPG system. I've run more than one whodunnit with D&D rules, and D&D is one of the last systems I'd pick for a dedicated investigative game. However, I do think skills-based games have the edge over class/level based games for investigation, and modern or futuristic games have the edge over ancient or medieval ones.

It really depends on what kind of investigation you want to run. If you're going for Lovecraftian/Supernatural investigation, CoC is certainly the premier game. I have limited experience with it, but the impression I get is that it's less crunchy in play than it appears on the surface. That said, there are several games that have been published expressly under the auspices of being rules-lite alternatives to CoC. The two that come to mind are The Eldritch Hack and Rats in the Walls.

If those are a little too lite, I'll propose a couple of alternatives. Savage Worlds is a good general purpose ruleset, and has a Lovecraftian setting/sourcebook called Realms of Cthulhu. It's been some time since I looked at the rules, but I remember thinking the Ubiquity system would handle investigative gameplay pretty well. You'd be looking for Leagues of Adventure, with the supplement book Leagues of Cthulhu.

If what you have in mind is more of a classic noir/hardboiled/whodunnit type detective story, options are more varied. I've had success running a detective campaign with Cyberpunk 2020, but that is far from rules lite. Someone here can probably recommend a rules-lite cyberpunk alternative. Gumshoe is the classic for that kind of game, but I've never read or played it. For some time I've wanted to run a hardboiled detective game using the Deadlands: Noir setting for Savage Worlds, but I haven't done it yet.

More than some other genres, I think investigative gaming profits hugely from being well read on the source material. If you want to run cosmic horror, I'd say the best thing you can do is read Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith and maybe Robert Bloch. If you want to run classic whodunnits, you can't go wrong with Raymond Chandler and Rex Stout. Mystery is a very "tropey" genre, and it runs best IME when the GM (and the players) are conversant in the stereotypes.

Quote from: BadApple on July 26, 2024, 09:44:23 PMHere's some published adventures that do a good job that you can learn from:

Thicker than blood - Cyberpunk 2020
Murder on Arcturus Station - Traveller
Noblesse Oblige - Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying

The best investigation module I've read is quite possibly the WFRP 4th edition adventure "A Rough Night at the Three Feathers". It's a multi-murder whodunnit, structured around a timeline of events over a single night. I played in it a while ago and subsequently ran it with some minor conversion for my Dolmenwood campaign, to huge success.

One I will not suggest is Gumshoe. Its a bit too woke for my liking and its really just a big "lets fix something that was not really broken!" screed that takes pages and pages and pages to say very little.

Quote from: BadApple on July 26, 2024, 09:44:23 PMi don't think there's a good "system" for investigations.  My success with doing a mystery/investigation game has been knowing how a good mystery is structured and then any game system works.

Here's some published adventures that do a good job that you can learn from:

Thicker than blood - Cyberpunk 2020
Murder on Arcturus Station - Traveller
Noblesse Oblige - Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying

I am actually slowly building to Murder on Arcturus Station (modified for my home brew setting and using NPCs form the players back stories instead of the published NPCs) in my girls Traveller game. In their next adventure they are going to meet the they guy that ends up getting murdered. So, yeah that is a GREAT choice.

I have seen Thicker than Blood, but it has been years. I'll have to give it a look to see if I can use it as a basis for a traveller game too.

I haven't heard of Noblesse Oblige. What is the focus of it ?

Quote from: Omega on July 27, 2024, 07:48:27 PMOne I will not suggest is Gumshoe. Its a bit too woke for my liking and its really just a big "lets fix something that was not really broken!" screed that takes pages and pages and pages to say very little.

I hate to bash on a rule system (unless they deserve it and even then ...) but yeah, Some how I got a Gumeshoe rule (must have been in a bundle or something) and skimmed through it. I was not a fan at all.

The premise of 'It was made to fix CoC when characters fail to get the clue' was faulty to me. I run CoC and love it. I have NEVER had the players not get the clues. First, have at least 3 ways for them to get the clue, 2nd use the 'fail it forward' rule. You failed the roll so instead of 5 minutes searching to find it, it takes 30 minutes and you made noise so now you have to sneak out and will have people know someone is investigating them.

If you like Gumeshoe, fine but it just is not for me.

Quote from: Lurker on July 27, 2024, 08:46:58 PM

Quote from: BadApple on July 26, 2024, 09:44:23 PMi don't think there's a good "system" for investigations.  My success with doing a mystery/investigation game has been knowing how a good mystery is structured and then any game system works.

Here's some published adventures that do a good job that you can learn from:

Thicker than blood - Cyberpunk 2020
Murder on Arcturus Station - Traveller
Noblesse Oblige - Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying

I am actually slowly building to Murder on Arcturus Station (modified for my home brew setting and using NPCs form the players back stories instead of the published NPCs) in my girls Traveller game. In their next adventure they are going to meet the they guy that ends up getting murdered. So, yeah that is a GREAT choice.

I have seen Thicker than Blood, but it has been years. I'll have to give it a look to see if I can use it as a basis for a traveller game too.

I haven't heard of Noblesse Oblige. What is the focus of it ?

It's a murder mystery.

You can read the whole thing here:  https://anyflip.com/cmjgl/bodf/basic

Personally, I like Vaesen from Free League.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 27, 2024, 01:32:58 AMYou absolutely can run an investigation in any decent RPG system. I've run more than one whodunnit with D&D rules, and D&D is one of the last systems I'd pick for a dedicated investigative game. However, I do think skills-based games have the edge over class/level based games for investigation, and modern or futuristic games have the edge over ancient or medieval ones.

It really depends on what kind of investigation you want to run. If you're going for Lovecraftian/Supernatural investigation, CoC is certainly the premier game. I have limited experience with it, but the impression I get is that it's less crunchy in play than it appears on the surface. That said, there are several games that have been published expressly under the auspices of being rules-lite alternatives to CoC. The two that come to mind are The Eldritch Hack and Rats in the Walls.

If those are a little too lite, I'll propose a couple of alternatives. Savage Worlds is a good general purpose ruleset, and has a Lovecraftian setting/sourcebook called Realms of Cthulhu. It's been some time since I looked at the rules, but I remember thinking the Ubiquity system would handle investigative gameplay pretty well. You'd be looking for Leagues of Adventure, with the supplement book Leagues of Cthulhu.

If what you have in mind is more of a classic noir/hardboiled/whodunnit type detective story, options are more varied. I've had success running a detective campaign with Cyberpunk 2020, but that is far from rules lite. Someone here can probably recommend a rules-lite cyberpunk alternative. Gumshoe is the classic for that kind of game, but I've never read or played it. For some time I've wanted to run a hardboiled detective game using the Deadlands: Noir setting for Savage Worlds, but I haven't done it yet.

More than some other genres, I think investigative gaming profits hugely from being well read on the source material. If you want to run cosmic horror, I'd say the best thing you can do is read Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith and maybe Robert Bloch. If you want to run classic whodunnits, you can't go wrong with Raymond Chandler and Rex Stout. Mystery is a very "tropey" genre, and it runs best IME when the GM (and the players) are conversant in the stereotypes.

Thanks for the recommendations.

Quote from: Katowice on July 28, 2024, 11:32:12 AMPersonally, I like Vaesen from Free League.

I've thought about taking a look at that system. What do you like about it that makes it stand out?