Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 20, 2024, 12:02:32 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2024, 10:45:39 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 20, 2024, 08:36:20 AMCompanies don't have a choice. They have to keep making new editions, including reboots, or they'll go out of business.

Business-wise, BattleTech seems to be doing just fine these days without a reboot. They're doing well by making new (and far more visually appealing) minis and successfully using Kickstarter to launch them in bulk at lower risk. However, the momentum of that plan may start falling off as many of their whales (myself included) now have damn near every mini I will ever need. OK, perhaps there are a few more I should buy...

Rebooting doesn't make the previous continuities stop having been written. It's this damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. They've written all the original material they could ever write and are now just repackaging the same thing over and over with minor variations. It's stagnant. I wouldn't mind if there were alternatives, but they hold a de facto monopoly on the mech genre in the Anglosphere. If you're bored of or not interested in Battletech, then you're fucked. Same for every other genre: it's de facto socialism.

This creates a vicious cycle. Corpos inevitably drive their IPs into the ground when they have no competition to drive improvements, and almost nobody wants to invest the effort in making new IPs, ultimately leaving consumers with nothing. Copyright only worsens the issue by legally barring fans from preserving and recycling abandonware.

There are so many abandoned IPs that I'd love to get my hands on.

It is not de facto socialism. If anything, it's an example of the brand power of BattleTech to continue to be successful in a niche market. BattleTech does not hold a monopoly, and Catalyst doesn't do anything to stop competition. However, despite your feelings towards it, it continues to vastly overmatch all other western mecha tabletop games. What you're calling socialism, I'd counter by calling it a story of capitalism.

As for your complaint that it's stagnant, there are obviously many that disagree. The current changes to the setting, now the year 3151 in-universe, are more than just minor variations. Entire factions have risen and fallen, and the state of interstellar communications has become dramatically less connected than even during the worst of the Succession Wars (this is a rather big deal in the setting). Sure, many of the dramitic elements remain familiar, but that's because the BattleTech setting & fiction focuses on one key unchanging component: mundane humanity and its struggles. If you take that away in the interests of making something new and fresh, you won't have a setting that is recognizably BattleTech. You may not care about that, but the property exists and is profitting on interest of those that do.

Story of capitalism? Like the Crowdstrike blue screen of death?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2024, 07:37:46 AMStory of capitalism? Like the Crowdstrike blue screen of death?

If you're being serious, explain your comparison and I'll be happy to discuss it further.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 21, 2024, 11:18:56 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2024, 07:37:46 AMStory of capitalism? Like the Crowdstrike blue screen of death?

If you're being serious, explain your comparison and I'll be happy to discuss it further.

I jest.

In general, I think it's a hugely bad idea to put all your eggs in one basket when it comes to anything, media franchises in this case. They always rot eventually and a plethora of choices is always better than one. The media landscape is bland and homogenous as a result of concentrating in a handful of franchises.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2024, 12:09:03 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 21, 2024, 11:18:56 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2024, 07:37:46 AMStory of capitalism? Like the Crowdstrike blue screen of death?

If you're being serious, explain your comparison and I'll be happy to discuss it further.

I jest.

In general, I think it's a hugely bad idea to put all your eggs in one basket when it comes to anything, media franchises in this case. They always rot eventually and a plethora of choices is always better than one. The media landscape is bland and homogenous as a result of concentrating in a handful of franchises.

A major correction: The Corporate Media is bland and homogeneous as a result of corporations trying to maximize their ROI by appealing to the greatest number of people AND the woke infiltration AND the fact that Blackrock and co demand certain things when they buy your soul.

BUT... This is only true of megacorps (mainly, the exception being true believers that unless they get a cash injection by Blackrock and co will be dead shortly), small/indie creators are able to push out stuff that's not the same grey slop the megacorps are shitting out.

Those franchises have decades of good will and love built in, it takes time for the megacorp to truly destroy them and then put them in a vault to languish.

IF, any megacorp were to REALLY turn the ship around and start pushing out GOOD content free of political/religious (I go to church to get preached at, not to the movies thank you) propaganda you might see the others react. But those are huge ships, you can't expect them to make a 180 degree turn as fast as a small more nimble boat.

Now, while they are vomiting and shitting their grey slop is the perfect time for someone REALLY creative (like yourself) to publish something different and "new", others are busy doing so.

I think you still need to reach the point of not really caring for the brand, for instance I OWN the OT and prequels of SW, I also own WEG's Star Wars, I have no need for Disney nor do I care what they do with the brand.

Don't get me wrong, I'll still engage in the honored geek pastime of pointing out all the BS they are doing but there's exactly ZERO emotional attachment to it anymore.

There's currently several market niches waiting to be filled by SOMEONE, who (as Rippa proved) will make bank IF that someone knows how, where, when and to whom to market their product.

Heck, Pundit LIVES OF publishing INDIE RPGs and supplements. Never before has been self-publishing so easy.

I think most Battletech players basically ignore everything post-Tukayyid anyways, because the aftermath of it is simply uninteresting or fanfic-level bad.  The initial clan invasion was the high water mark of the property, and nothing since has kept that going.

Totally agree with that, my son and his friends have no interest in the post-clan invasion timeline.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2024, 12:09:03 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 21, 2024, 11:18:56 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2024, 07:37:46 AMStory of capitalism? Like the Crowdstrike blue screen of death?

If you're being serious, explain your comparison and I'll be happy to discuss it further.

I jest.

In general, I think it's a hugely bad idea to put all your eggs in one basket when it comes to anything, media franchises in this case. They always rot eventually and a plethora of choices is always better than one. The media landscape is bland and homogenous as a result of concentrating in a handful of franchises.

Whose eggs? Whose basket? There is no limit to how many eggs can be produced, but you have to really sell your eggs to get others to want to fill their baskets with them. If you can contribute to widening the available range, then do it. However, don't expect those that are currently producing their own eggs to handicap themselves (like, with a reboot) to give you a better chance.

Quote from: Valatar on July 21, 2024, 09:44:16 PMI think most Battletech players basically ignore everything post-Tukayyid anyways, because the aftermath of it is simply uninteresting or fanfic-level bad.  The initial clan invasion was the high water mark of the property, and nothing since has kept that going.

Catalyst seems to feel differently. While they seem to have limited support for the Jihad and early Dark Age eras, they seem to be full-on in their efforts on late Dark Age/ilClan era development, especially with all of the money and interest they've pulled in over the past 5 years (BattleTech now being bigger than ever before).

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2024, 02:06:49 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2024, 12:09:03 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 21, 2024, 11:18:56 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2024, 07:37:46 AMStory of capitalism? Like the Crowdstrike blue screen of death?

If you're being serious, explain your comparison and I'll be happy to discuss it further.

I jest.

In general, I think it's a hugely bad idea to put all your eggs in one basket when it comes to anything, media franchises in this case. They always rot eventually and a plethora of choices is always better than one. The media landscape is bland and homogenous as a result of concentrating in a handful of franchises.

Whose eggs? Whose basket? There is no limit to how many eggs can be produced, but you have to really sell your eggs to get others to want to fill their baskets with them. If you can contribute to widening the available range, then do it. However, don't expect those that are currently producing their own eggs to handicap themselves (like, with a reboot) to give you a better chance.

No, I want to reform copyright so that everyone is empowered to make and sell their own versions of Battletech. It works out fine for the bazillion third party D&D settings.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 22, 2024, 08:42:23 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2024, 02:06:49 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2024, 12:09:03 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 21, 2024, 11:18:56 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2024, 07:37:46 AMStory of capitalism? Like the Crowdstrike blue screen of death?

If you're being serious, explain your comparison and I'll be happy to discuss it further.

I jest.

In general, I think it's a hugely bad idea to put all your eggs in one basket when it comes to anything, media franchises in this case. They always rot eventually and a plethora of choices is always better than one. The media landscape is bland and homogenous as a result of concentrating in a handful of franchises.

Whose eggs? Whose basket? There is no limit to how many eggs can be produced, but you have to really sell your eggs to get others to want to fill their baskets with them. If you can contribute to widening the available range, then do it. However, don't expect those that are currently producing their own eggs to handicap themselves (like, with a reboot) to give you a better chance.

No, I want to reform copyright so that everyone is empowered to make and sell their own versions of Battletech. It works out fine for the bazillion third party D&D settings.

Why should others be empowered to parasitically profit off of the works of FASA/Fanpro/Catalyst/whoever holds BattleTech? Why not have every soda company that makes cola just be allowed to brand it as Coca-Cola? You were the one that flung out "it's socialism" but here you want to take a "means of production" (of a specific dominant brandname) and put it "into the hands of the people"... Sounds like what you have a problem with is capitalism.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2024, 11:49:44 AMWhy should others be empowered to parasitically profit off of the works of FASA/Fanpro/Catalyst/whoever holds BattleTech? Why not have every soda company that makes cola just be allowed to brand it as Coca-Cola? You were the one that flung out "it's socialism" but here you want to take a "means of production" (of a specific dominant brandname) and put it "into the hands of the people"... Sounds like what you have a problem with is capitalism.

No, trademark would still protect the name Battletech. Copyright and trademark are different laws.

For example, the Burroughs Estate owns the trademarks for Tarzan and Conan. While anyone is free to write and sell their own fanfic, since the stories are public domain, they aren't allowed to use the trademarks. This is why you don't see Disney trying to profit off their Tarzan movie anymore.

The problem is that copyright lasts for over a century due to Disney lobbying Congress, so corpos have free reign to destroy IPs and fans have zero recourse. By the time the copyright expires, all the fans who cared will be dead. See here: https://web.law.duke.edu/cspd/

A good example of how public domain helps the longevity and health of an IP would be the Cthulhu Mythos. Nobody owns the mythos, so anybody is free to make their own works using it. This prevents corpos from driving it into the ground and ensures that it doesn't get forgotten due to apathetic owners.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 22, 2024, 02:28:18 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2024, 11:49:44 AMWhy should others be empowered to parasitically profit off of the works of FASA/Fanpro/Catalyst/whoever holds BattleTech? Why not have every soda company that makes cola just be allowed to brand it as Coca-Cola? You were the one that flung out "it's socialism" but here you want to take a "means of production" (of a specific dominant brandname) and put it "into the hands of the people"... Sounds like what you have a problem with is capitalism.

No, trademark would still protect the name Battletech. Copyright and trademark are different laws.

For example, the Burroughs Estate owns the trademarks for Tarzan and Conan. While anyone is free to write and sell their own fanfic, since the stories are public domain, they aren't allowed to use the trademarks. This is why you don't see Disney trying to profit off their Tarzan movie anymore.

The problem is that copyright lasts for over a century due to Disney lobbying Congress, so corpos have free reign to destroy IPs and fans have zero recourse. By the time the copyright expires, all the fans who cared will be dead. See here: https://web.law.duke.edu/cspd/

A good example of how public domain helps the longevity and health of an IP would be the Cthulhu Mythos. Nobody owns the mythos, so anybody is free to make their own works using it. This prevents corpos from driving it into the ground and ensures that it doesn't get forgotten due to apathetic owners.

Explain how this would work with BattleTech. What would you produce? How would it be different from just making your own mecha property?

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2024, 02:31:03 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 22, 2024, 02:28:18 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2024, 11:49:44 AMWhy should others be empowered to parasitically profit off of the works of FASA/Fanpro/Catalyst/whoever holds BattleTech? Why not have every soda company that makes cola just be allowed to brand it as Coca-Cola? You were the one that flung out "it's socialism" but here you want to take a "means of production" (of a specific dominant brandname) and put it "into the hands of the people"... Sounds like what you have a problem with is capitalism.

No, trademark would still protect the name Battletech. Copyright and trademark are different laws.

For example, the Burroughs Estate owns the trademarks for Tarzan and Conan. While anyone is free to write and sell their own fanfic, since the stories are public domain, they aren't allowed to use the trademarks. This is why you don't see Disney trying to profit off their Tarzan movie anymore.

The problem is that copyright lasts for over a century due to Disney lobbying Congress, so corpos have free reign to destroy IPs and fans have zero recourse. By the time the copyright expires, all the fans who cared will be dead. See here: https://web.law.duke.edu/cspd/

A good example of how public domain helps the longevity and health of an IP would be the Cthulhu Mythos. Nobody owns the mythos, so anybody is free to make their own works using it. This prevents corpos from driving it into the ground and ensures that it doesn't get forgotten due to apathetic owners.

Explain how this would work with BattleTech. What would you produce? How would it be different from just making your own mecha property?

From my personal knowledge of how D&D and its clones work, I would say that a direct comparison of BattleTech would be,  you could make a game that uses the same rules, and plays exactly the same as BattleTech, and all you'd have to do us use different names for things, have a different story/setting, and not directly copy any of the visual designs of the mechs/units. 

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2024, 02:31:03 PMExplain how this would work with BattleTech. What would you produce? How would it be different from just making your own mecha property?

I have no emotional connection to Battletech and barely know anything about it, so I would probably make my own mecha property. What other mecha properties are there, anyway?

Anyway, what I mean is that there's a lot abandoned or ruined IPs that would become salvageable if copyright was reformed and terms reduced. Fans could take the material, do their own thing with it, and sell that for profit to support further material. They wouldn't be at the mercy of apathetic evil corpos that arbitrary destroy IPs.

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on July 22, 2024, 02:56:39 PMFrom my personal knowledge of how D&D and its clones work, I would say that a direct comparison of BattleTech would be,  you could make a game that uses the same rules, and plays exactly the same as BattleTech, and all you'd have to do us use different names for things, have a different story/setting, and not directly copy any of the visual designs of the mechs/units.

No, that's different. D&D clones have to work around copyright, whereas if copyright was reformed then they could outright copy material that entered public domain. It's hard to explain because Disney lobbied multiple times to extend copyright to over a century, so nothing relevant to our contemporary audiences has entered public domain for a really long time.

Let me think... oh, Pride and Prejudice and Zombies is an example. Most of the text is identical to Pride and Prejudice, but the writer altered some things and inserted new elements like zombies.

For Battletech it means that anyone could copy books that entered public domain, although they wouldn't be allowed to advertise themselves using the Battletech trademark. Although how trademark interacts with public domain names is iffy. Here's an explanation of how Dracula interacts with trademark law from a UK attorney: https://www.citma.org.uk/resources/intellectual-property-bites-trade-marks-and-dracula-blog.html

However, the purpose of trademarks is to prevent scammers from scamming customers by pretending to sell products from a particular origin. Trademarks can become invalid as a result of passing into common usage, such as with kleenex. This is called trademark dilution.