Quote from: jhkim on July 09, 2024, 04:54:40 PMThat's significantly different from being subjugated into wearing wooden shoes.

Quote from: Brad on July 09, 2024, 07:38:09 AM

Quote from: Omega on July 09, 2024, 01:22:04 AMIt is not set in stone that you must kill everything not that you have to spare everything. Play it as it plays out. Reactions could tilt things wildly.

Well of course not, but if you're clearing out a dungeon of orcs, why wouldn't you clear it out?

The PCs are investigating. Without grabbing the module if recall right no one at the time of the PCs arrival is exactly sure what is going on. Just that something is going on around the caves and humanoids are involved.

The module makes it explocitly clear that PCs can negotiate and monsters may take hostages rather than kill. So The PCs are usually going in unsure who is doing what or why.

Some of the rumors point to certain things going on. But only if the PCs ever think to ask.

It really is the best module as its so crazy open ended. Go in kill em all? Go in sneaky? Go in investigating and talking? Mix it up and do all of the above?

As said. Reactions can throw things in unexpected directions. We got the wights in the cultist area to help us out. I got the kobolds to calm down and after some chatting lucked out and they were friendly enough to give us a detailed map of the areas they had been scouting. And clued us in about the bugbears.

Quote from: Nakana on July 09, 2024, 04:27:10 PM

Quote from: zircher on July 09, 2024, 02:56:44 PMIt's been a while since I ran a classic D&D sand box campaign.  But if I did, I'd probably start with a orc or goblin massacre to set the stage.  Maybe that's why I found Goblin Slayer (the RPG) to be interesting since it makes no bones that goblins are evil.

That, and it's one of the best "crunchy" systems I've ever read. IMO it's what D&D should have become.

Really? I like the comic but I'd only regarded the TRPG as a curiosity up until now. If you're inclined I'd be curious to see a brief rundown of the system and why you'd give it that acclaim.

Quote from: SHARK on July 09, 2024, 03:42:36 AMHowever, on occasion, there may be some benefit to be gained from parleying with such creatures, taking them prisoner, and otherwise letting some of them live.

Certainly. It's about strategic victories as much as anything. You would be smart to ally with the Ork slaves in G1: Steading of the Hill Giant Chief to get them to lead a revolt against the giants. That kills 2 birds with 1 stone and your job to end the threat of the Giants and their masters, not butcher Orks.

The Caves of Chaos, on the other hand, you have put every last one of them to the sword. They're not like the Lizardmen or even the Bandits, who can possibly be reasoned with. Nope, the Orks, Goblins, Kobolds, Hobgoblins and Bugbears in The Caves are there to be the footsoldiers of the Temple of Evil Chaos and, as Gary noted, 'nits make lice'.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on July 09, 2024, 11:14:44 PMThe Caves of Chaos, on the other hand, you have put every last one of them to the sword. They're not like the Lizardmen or even the Bandits, who can possibly be reasoned with. Nope, the Orks, Goblins, Kobolds, Hobgoblins and Bugbears in The Caves are there to be the footsoldiers of the Temple of Evil Chaos and, as Gary noted, 'nits make lice'.

B2 has a section on reasoning with the humanoids.

QuoteRANSOMING PRISONERS: Organized tribes can optionally be allowed to take player characters prisoner, freeing one to return to the KEEP in order to bring a ransom back to free the captives. Set the sums low - 10 to 100 gold pieces (or a magic item which the ransoming monsters would find useful) per prisoner. If the ransom is paid, allow the characters to go free. Then, without telling the players, assume that this success brought fame to the capturing monsters, so their numbers will be increased by 2-12 additional members, and the tribe will also be very careful to watch for a return of the adventurers seeking revenge for their humiliating captivity.

QuoteTRIBAL ALLIANCES AND WARFARE: You might allow player characters to somehow become aware that there is a constant fighting going on between the goblins and hobgoblins on one side and the orcs, sometimes with gnoll allies, on the other - with the kobolds hoping to be forgotten by all, and the bugbears picking off any stragglers who happen by. With this knowledge, they might be able to set tribes to fighting one another, and then the adventurers can take advantage of the weakened state of the feuding humanoids. Be careful to handle this whole thing properly; it is a device you may use to aid players who are few in number but with a high level of playing skill.

This says clearly that they are not unified footsoldiers working for the Shrine of Evil Chaos. As far as I can see, the Shrine is just one of many factions within the caves.

Quote from: Omega on July 09, 2024, 07:20:29 PM

Quote from: Brad on July 09, 2024, 07:38:09 AM

Quote from: Omega on July 09, 2024, 01:22:04 AMIt is not set in stone that you must kill everything not that you have to spare everything. Play it as it plays out. Reactions could tilt things wildly.

Well of course not, but if you're clearing out a dungeon of orcs, why wouldn't you clear it out?

The PCs are investigating. Without grabbing the module if recall right no one at the time of the PCs arrival is exactly sure what is going on. Just that something is going on around the caves and humanoids are involved.

The module makes it explocitly clear that PCs can negotiate and monsters may take hostages rather than kill. So The PCs are usually going in unsure who is doing what or why.

Some of the rumors point to certain things going on. But only if the PCs ever think to ask.

It really is the best module as its so crazy open ended. Go in kill em all? Go in sneaky? Go in investigating and talking? Mix it up and do all of the above?

As said. Reactions can throw things in unexpected directions. We got the wights in the cultist area to help us out. I got the kobolds to calm down and after some chatting lucked out and they were friendly enough to give us a detailed map of the areas they had been scouting. And clued us in about the bugbears.

Greetings!

Yeah, Omega, I, as the DM, generally like to leave such moral choices and strategic decision-making up to the players themselves. Or rather, the Player Characters. I want THEM to think, and make decisions primarily based upon what their character believes to be right and appropriate, influenced by their Character's religion, their family background, and the society that their Character comes from.

I recognize entirely that such matters can line up with the particular Player, understandably--but by no means must do so.

I enjoy giving the Players freedom to run their Characters however they want--and whatever choices they choose, will typically also come with it a particular set of potential consequences and after-effects, whether such are positive, negative, or probably most realistically, a mix of both.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Omega/Shark:

Not actually disagreeing with you here, just pointing out the style of play you're describing is what we'd call "Advanced" and the "Basic" nature of B2 means that when I played it as a kid we just killed everyone because that's what you did. Eventually, though, there were better approaches to handling situations, for sure, and we became more sophisticated. My entire point is that baby orcs being thrown at neophyte players isn't inappropriate at all; eventually you might learn to do something else besides wholesale slaughter, for whatever reason, but it has nothing to do with morality, either in-game or out. The prior I can see perhaps being a reasonable topic of discussion for all the points you made, but the latter? D&D has nothing to do with reality and trying to inject external ethical systems into a game that has literal mechanisms for determining good/evil is fucking dumb.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 09, 2024, 08:06:18 PMIf you're inclined I'd be curious to see a brief rundown of the system and why you'd give it that acclaim.

Sure, give me a day or two and I'll write a proper review in the appropriate section (don't want to derail this thread).

>she said that "This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"

Shark's campaign has ALL the tasty flavors!

It's like a OSR Burrito!

My only concern is THAT is something one should only hear in bluetard shitholes like Commiefornia and not Boise, Idaho which is supposed to be home to real Americans, not traitorous worthless woke scum.

In my campaigns, monstrous humanoids don't breed like humans so  "oh no, what to do about the baby orc???" never happens. I just don't have the time or interest to deal with that.

I'm very happy for my players to seek non-violent solutions, but don't act surprised when the CHAOTIC monsters don't hold up their end of the bargain!

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on July 09, 2024, 11:14:44 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 09, 2024, 03:42:36 AMHowever, on occasion, there may be some benefit to be gained from parleying with such creatures, taking them prisoner, and otherwise letting some of them live.

Certainly. It's about strategic victories as much as anything. You would be smart to ally with the Ork slaves in G1: Steading of the Hill Giant Chief to get them to lead a revolt against the giants. That kills 2 birds with 1 stone and your job to end the threat of the Giants and their masters, not butcher Orks.

The Caves of Chaos, on the other hand, you have put every last one of them to the sword. They're not like the Lizardmen or even the Bandits, who can possibly be reasoned with. Nope, the Orks, Goblins, Kobolds, Hobgoblins and Bugbears in The Caves are there to be the footsoldiers of the Temple of Evil Chaos and, as Gary noted, 'nits make lice'.

Many of the cave tribes are at odds with each other, which can be leveraged by a clever party. Even the two orc tribes are at odds with each other! The bugbears bully the weaker humanoids so convincing the goblins and hobgoblins to turn on their abusive larger cousins is a good strategy.

Quote from: Brad on July 10, 2024, 05:22:20 PMOmega/Shark:

Not actually disagreeing with you here, just pointing out the style of play you're describing is what we'd call "Advanced" and the "Basic" nature of B2 means that when I played it as a kid we just killed everyone because that's what you did. Eventually, though, there were better approaches to handling situations, for sure, and we became more sophisticated. My entire point is that baby orcs being thrown at neophyte players isn't inappropriate at all; eventually you might learn to do something else besides wholesale slaughter, for whatever reason, but it has nothing to do with morality, either in-game or out. The prior I can see perhaps being a reasonable topic of discussion for all the points you made, but the latter? D&D has nothing to do with reality and trying to inject external ethical systems into a game that has literal mechanisms for determining good/evil is fucking dumb.

Greetings!

Great points, Brad! When I first started playing in 5th grade or so, up through the first part of high school, yeah, we just killed everything--male, female, young or old, it didn't matter. Everything died. Like you say though, with a bit more aging and experience, somewhere in high school we gradually, *occasionally* started doing more role-playing, diplomacy, and that kind of thing. Hell, all through even later adulthood, killing everything is always fun, and still an option. Just later on, yeah, we start to also consider the potential benefits from additional approaches.

In my game here, two out of 5 players wanted to kill everything. *Laughing* A third was undecided, while the other two argued for the benefits of sparing them. One, a Cleric, pondered the potential spiritual benefits of converting them, and bringing them into the ranks of civilized religion. The other player arguing for sparing them--maintained that there could be considerable financial benefits from keeping them alive, and putting them to work, like strong beasts.

So, yeah. I'm fine with whatever the Players agree on as their strategy. There are also additional opportunities for drama and adventures involving the indentured humanoids, right? *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 10, 2024, 07:45:48 PM>she said that "This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"

Shark's campaign has ALL the tasty flavors!

It's like a OSR Burrito!

My only concern is THAT is something one should only hear in bluetard shitholes like Commiefornia and not Boise, Idaho which is supposed to be home to real Americans, not traitorous worthless woke scum.

In my campaigns, monstrous humanoids don't breed like humans so  "oh no, what to do about the baby orc???" never happens. I just don't have the time or interest to deal with that.

I'm very happy for my players to seek non-violent solutions, but don't act surprised when the CHAOTIC monsters don't hold up their end of the bargain!

Greetings!

Yeah, brother, I know. Boise State University has, like most universities everywhere in America, been corrupted by Woke, traitor scum. So, every year, the Woke Commie professors brainwash more young graduates, and send them out into society to breed and spread their evil corruption. Boise is an island of Woke, Liberal scum, while everywhere else in the state is blood-red. Similar to how Texas has been red, with the state capital at Austin, being a Woke Liberal island.

Fortunately, for Idaho, while Boise and the Boise Mayor are Woke and Liberal--the majority of the State Legislature, the Governor, and other executive branches are strongly Conservative. Liberals here REEE about being surrounded by TRUMP supporters *everywhere*. Well, except for the coffee shops and some club areas in Boise, that is a very accurate dynamic.

So, yeah, playing at a game store in Boise, I occasionally see the Woke Liberal gamers hopping about. Unlike Commiefornia though, here even the majority of gamers are usually Conservative. There are always a few Woke morons around though, especially in Boise.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Nakana on July 10, 2024, 05:34:50 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 09, 2024, 08:06:18 PMIf you're inclined I'd be curious to see a brief rundown of the system and why you'd give it that acclaim.

Sure, give me a day or two and I'll write a proper review in the appropriate section (don't want to derail this thread).

Thanks I'll keep an eye out for it.

Quote from: SHARK on July 10, 2024, 10:41:33 PMSo, yeah, playing at a game store in Boise, I occasionally see the Woke Liberal gamers hopping about. Unlike Commiefornia though, here even the majority of gamers are usually Conservative. There are always a few Woke morons around though, especially in Boise.

One of the perks that I loved about living around military bases for most of my life is that the gaming stores are not populated with spoon fed wokesters.  Of course, now that the military upper ranks are getting infested, that might change, but it has not happened yet.

Quote from: jhkim on July 09, 2024, 04:06:52 PMMany posters have been saying about how evil races should just be killed, but in SHARK's campaign, ogres were proven capable of being good citizens - and the PCs were trying to also have orcs and goblins become good citizens.

Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2024, 10:59:18 PMWell, Jhkim, the players came up with the idea of coordinating with several local churches, the nearby town's Militia Commander, and a prominent merchant that owns a local logging and timber company. An NPC henchman, a Ranger named Gregori Chemikov, mentioned that in a land to the west, Uggarya, the peoples there have some history and experience with living amongst several Ogre tribes that have been converted from savagery, and have become generally loyal members of the local communities. Thus, the group could readily imagine the benefits of having friendly Ogres as allies, though thinking about Goblins and Orcs took them awhile to hash out, and eventually decided that giving them a chance to gain redemption was worthwhile. The player playing the character, Ivan Dranyev, a Paladin serving the Church of Dharyaan, further suggested that, if the various humanoids renege on their pledges, and fail to show good faith on their road to redemption--the consequences can be very severe, and result in them all being swiftly executed. Thus resolved, the Players were agreed that such an attempt at redeeming the savage humanoids that they had captured, was a worthwhile endeavor.

That's interesting, and if humanoids aren't inherently evil, it seems like it opens up some big philosophical questions in the world about what the conflict with humanoids is about. Since the PCs are now invested in redeeming savage humanoids, it might be interesting to see how they deal with another group who want to kill all humanoids and cleanse the land of their filth.

Do you allow civilized ogres as PCs, SHARK? I seem to recall you had some weird race options, like your rainbow hippos. In one of my early D&D campaigns, I played a half-ogre fighter - as written by Gygax in Dragon magazine #29 (1979). He dealt with a lot of bad reactions when we were in town, but we did really well in the Judge's Guild dungeon we were going through, so we ended up dropping a lot of gold which got over some of the prejudice.

Greetings!

Well, in a limited extent, yeah, there are "Civilized" Ogres. The Vallorean Empire had taken several large Ogre Tribes as prisoners. The Vallorean authorities created special guarded, fortified farms for these Ogre tribes to live on. The Vallorean administration then sent in religious missionaries to constantly preach to the Ogres, as well as other efforts at changing the Ogre culture, way of dressing, and teaching the Ogre's useful professions. Gradually, the Vallorean Empire had conquered several enemy human kingdoms, and after having most of the foreign men executed, set up seperate encampments for 500,000 or 600,000 women. The Vallorean authorities then began a long-term breeding campaign, where the foreign women were set up with Ogres from the Ogre Farms. Half the women died during these programs, or more, though once some 200,000 women survived and were able to give birth to half-Ogre children, new farms and schools were established for the Half-Ogre children. Likewise, male humans were set up with female Ogres, which was more immediately successful in breeding more Half-Ogres.

Rinse and repeat, diligently for about a century or more, and the Vallorean Empire has now cultivated a large popilation of Half-Igre citizens, as well as a limited group of pure Ogre settlements. The Ogres, and the Half-Ogres have gradually been awarded with Vallorean citizenship. The Ogres on the Ogre Farms get regular shipments of extra food, costume jewelry, furs, and weapons and armour. The Ogre Farms also get shipments of animals to herd, as well as eat. Periodically, the Vallorean authorities send convicted criminals to the Ogre Farms where they are swiftly eaten in great feasts. Ogres and Half-Ogres are like extra-large adolescents in adult bodies, with simple minds, a love for flashy bling, sex, food, and violence. Keeping all that in mind, the Ogres and Half-Ogres have gradually been forged into reliable citizens and brutally effective soldiers. Occasionally, people stupid enough to offend the Ogres or Half-Ogres in the wrong way are unceremoniously hacked apart and eaten. Most people working and dealing with Ogres and Half-Ogres receive instruction and materials on how to talk to Ogres, and how to behave with such creatures.

These "Vallorean Ogres" are "Civilized" after a fashion, dressing like humans, having jobs and professions, and enjoying life. Most are involved in hard labour professions, such as farming, mining, logging, blacksmithing, and herding. Beyond such professions, of course, Ogres and Half-Ogres find that serving as soldiers in the Vallorean Legions to be exciting, glorious, and rewarding.

The "Vallorean Ogres" are generally of a Neutral Alignment, with some actually being Good. There are a few that embrace an Evil alignment, though they do not tend to last very long. The rigid foundations of Law and Order promoted by the Vallorean Empire requires most Ogres and Half-Ogres to be very loyal, obedient, disciplined, and law-abiding. Crazed outbursts and wild murderhobo sprees end up being crucified. So, most of the Ogres and Half-Ogres are disciplined and reliable. Even with the majority, though, while not usually "Evil"--they still have a rough, harsh, and brutal nature within them. So, Ogres and Half-Ogres love violence, are generally fearless, and are harsh, brutal, hyper-masculine, hyper-sexual, garrish, and simple-minded. Such characteristics can take considerable effort to manage effectively, while also forging them into trustworthy citizens of the Vallorean Empire.

Out in the world, there is a group of "Civilized" mercantile city-states of Goblins. These Goblins are different from savage Gremlins, which are evil cousin humanoids that are also barbaric and live in tribes. The civilized city-state Goblins are very different, are not usually Evil in alignment, though on a racial scale, they represent a minority population of larger groups of Goblins and more savage and mystical Gremlins.

Orcs, well, they are for the most part, evil and savage. Again, though, there is a somewhat "Civilized" Orc Kingdom, as well as occasionally an independent Orc tribe that is not Evil in alignment. Global-wise, these Orcs are a distinct minority. Most Orcs are evil, brutal savages.

Down to the individual level, the Micro, yeah. 90% are savage and evil, with maybe 10% being Non-Evil. So, the odds are definitely not good for "redeeming" Orcs, converting them, and such like, but, with individuals and small groups, who knows? I let the random dice rolls decide! And the Players choices, approaches, and commitment as modifiers.

I generally prefer to keep the baseline simple, strong, and brutal, with a small chance of something different. I find that such an approach opens the door now and then for different kinds of characters, different kinds of adventures, stories and plots, and yet, without becoming some constant moral circle-jerk with every wilderness or dungeon encounter.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK