Quote from: DocJones on July 08, 2024, 08:14:48 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PMThe young Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins were taken away from their surviving families, and taken away to be educated properly in civilization and proper religion.

That's a mistake.
Don't forget what Gary said, "Nits make lice".

Greetings!

Yes, that's right, Doc Jones! "Nits make Lice!" *Laughing*

Kill them all!

As I am fond of saying, "Let Fire and Steel be their portion!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2024, 08:43:42 PMCant people realize that this is a fantasy world, and people are playing characters that are not them, but people who exist in a fantasy world that doesn't exist, and the WHOLLY DIFFERENT CULTURE than the real world!  And people like her are why people want to escape the real world once in a while?

It is ROLE-PLAYING.  You're acting as people who are not like your own self.  As such, these characters we play may do things that we won't.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Yeah, Cathode Ray! ROLE-PLAYING I think many more recent gamers really have little idea what it means to actually role-play. As we have seen from many articles, interviews, and online proclamations and chats--lots of this new generation of modern gamers absolutely fully embrace the idea of "REPRESENTATION" and that RPG's are absolutely stages for them to "Self-Insert" themselves into. In every case, they have transliminated the video-game aspect of creating an "Avatar" that is specifically *them*, in the modern world, in the here and now.

Thus, there really isn't any "Role-Playing" going on. I'm not sure what the Hell goes on in these Woke games--but going by their testimony and exclamations, they clearly have no idea what it means to role-play a different person from themselves, set into a different age, and even a different society, culture, and world. All of that is entirely beyond the modern, Woke gamer.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on July 08, 2024, 09:50:40 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2024, 01:43:22 AMI think your players (and maybe you too) are going soft:

The only good Goblin, Orc, Ogre, Witch, etc is a dead one.

Goddamn right! 'They're Ork children! You can't kill them!'

Watch me, bitch. And I will be doing civilization a favor by ridding it of another monster that would grow up to plague it.

Greetings!

*Laughing* That's RIGHT, Insane Nerd Ramblings!

Yes, KILL THEM ALL!

That's always an option, certainly.

However, on occasion, there may be some benefit to be gained from parleying with such creatures, taking them prisoner, and otherwise letting some of them live.

I also like the cartoons you posted!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 08, 2024, 09:55:25 PMThis is why I think including B2 as the 'intro' adventure for most of Moldvay Basic's run was a misstep--it required groups to engage with those questions from the start, instead of letting them get into it as they grew more familiar with the game.

Greetings!

I have always lived "Keep On The Borderlands!" *Laughing* Probably my favourite module ever!

You don't like Players being "Thrown Into The Deep End!"?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PM"This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"

Oh, you mean it is fun. OK.

Quote from: Omega on July 09, 2024, 01:22:04 AMIt is not set in stone that you must kill everything not that you have to spare everything. Play it as it plays out. Reactions could tilt things wildly.

Well of course not, but if you're clearing out a dungeon of orcs, why wouldn't you clear it out?

That said, one of the first games I ever played had a couple chaotic characters who kept making friends with all the goblinoids we came across, so it's not like I've never seen it happen, it just doesn't make any sense to assume any/every monster has the potential to be friendly. Even in the example adventure in the Moldvay Basic it clearly demonstrates trying to reason with hobgoblins before randomly engaging in melee; the same logic wouldn't apply to hobgoblins actively attacking the party. In the latter case, death is the only option.

Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2024, 11:33:13 PMYeah, I often get the sense that Woke gamers really *do* speak an entirely different language. Like my friend Spinachcat says, we should embrace a "Gaming Hobby Divorce"--on down the line, for our game groups, our conventions, the game companies that we patronize, everything. I really do suspect that many Woke gamers actually do play in Waterdeep Magical Coffee Shops, make "Hot Messes" of themselves in weird forest parties, and attend gay rainbow proms in their weird, utopian, Woke fantasy cities. It isn't just a figment of our hate-filled imaginations, either--I have watched some of Connie Chang's livestream plays, amongst other Woke gamers, and their games resemble nothing like the games I run or play in. Sad, my friend, but it is true. Woke gamers really do believe different things, and that effects everything in life--including how they play and run their games.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, their idea of a game session sounds BORING. Sure, I like a good amount of role-playing, but that's just porting over their real-life self-indulgent shit. Their narcissism knows no bounds.

*literally shaking*
My special hypoallergenic pudding is not setting properly! What will I do without my nutrient agar!

Yeah, contrast is one of those dials that needs to be discussed before the campaign. But even if you did, sounds like others need that explanation too. Whatever. I like the rare "They're not bad guys, they're sad guys! You Misunderstand THEM!" but very, Very, VERY rarely. If everything's grey, then everything's indistinct, like bland gruel, like pablum.

So, what you do is get the bard to write a play about a family that adopts a cute and funny orc baby and you open it in courts and theatres (if you've got them) across the land.  There's an advertisment for orc baby adoptions on the back of the playbill (or the crier's spiel if there's no printing press or copy spells).  You make a plea for parents to come forward and bring orc babies into loving homes.  You make 100gp per baby.  You leave the kingdom before they hit puberty at six and start murdering people.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 09, 2024, 05:16:01 AM

Quote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PM"This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"

Oh, you mean it is fun. OK.

Haaaa, I was taking the last drink of coffee before I grab lunch when I read that, and I laughed it out. Luckily MOST went back into the ole cup.

Toooooo funny of a response and good job on giving me some humor ! THANKS !

It's been a while since I ran a classic D&D sand box campaign.  But if I did, I'd probably start with a orc or goblin massacre to set the stage.  Maybe that's why I found Goblin Slayer (the RPG) to be interesting since it makes no bones that goblins are evil.

Many posters have been saying about how evil races should just be killed, but in SHARK's campaign, ogres were proven capable of being good citizens - and the PCs were trying to also have orcs and goblins become good citizens.

Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2024, 10:59:18 PMWell, Jhkim, the players came up with the idea of coordinating with several local churches, the nearby town's Militia Commander, and a prominent merchant that owns a local logging and timber company. An NPC henchman, a Ranger named Gregori Chemikov, mentioned that in a land to the west, Uggarya, the peoples there have some history and experience with living amongst several Ogre tribes that have been converted from savagery, and have become generally loyal members of the local communities. Thus, the group could readily imagine the benefits of having friendly Ogres as allies, though thinking about Goblins and Orcs took them awhile to hash out, and eventually decided that giving them a chance to gain redemption was worthwhile. The player playing the character, Ivan Dranyev, a Paladin serving the Church of Dharyaan, further suggested that, if the various humanoids renege on their pledges, and fail to show good faith on their road to redemption--the consequences can be very severe, and result in them all being swiftly executed. Thus resolved, the Players were agreed that such an attempt at redeeming the savage humanoids that they had captured, was a worthwhile endeavor.

That's interesting, and if humanoids aren't inherently evil, it seems like it opens up some big philosophical questions in the world about what the conflict with humanoids is about. Since the PCs are now invested in redeeming savage humanoids, it might be interesting to see how they deal with another group who want to kill all humanoids and cleanse the land of their filth.

Do you allow civilized ogres as PCs, SHARK? I seem to recall you had some weird race options, like your rainbow hippos. In one of my early D&D campaigns, I played a half-ogre fighter - as written by Gygax in Dragon magazine #29 (1979). He dealt with a lot of bad reactions when we were in town, but we did really well in the Judge's Guild dungeon we were going through, so we ended up dropping a lot of gold which got over some of the prejudice.

Quote from: zircher on July 09, 2024, 02:56:44 PMIt's been a while since I ran a classic D&D sand box campaign.  But if I did, I'd probably start with a orc or goblin massacre to set the stage.  Maybe that's why I found Goblin Slayer (the RPG) to be interesting since it makes no bones that goblins are evil.

That, and it's one of the best "crunchy" systems I've ever read. IMO it's what D&D should have become.

As a side note on colonialism...

Quote from: Brad on July 08, 2024, 10:31:48 PM

Quote from: Omega on July 08, 2024, 06:30:22 PMTo be fair. The Dutch were a plague on what feels like every other native culture they came across. But so were most of the other seagoing powers of the time.

Fair enough, but honestly I'd rather be subjugated into wearing wooden shoes than hacked into pieces with a machete and eaten.

Over the course of the 1700s, Dutch settlers in South Africa effected a genocide on the San people of the region. There are no clear statistics on the number, but it is clear that they wiped out at least tens of thousands. Here's testimonial from the time:

Quote"A farmer," says Barrow, in 1797, "thinks he cannot proclaim a more meritorious action than the murder of one of these people. A farmer from Graaff-Reinet, being asked in the Secretary's office a few days before we left town, if the savages were numerous or troublesome on the road, replied, 'he had only shot four,' with as much composure and indifference, as if he had been speaking of four partridges. I myself have heard one of the humane colonists boast of having destroyed with his own hands nearly three hundred of these unfortunate wretches."

They would have commando forces of 50-100 horsemen, go in and directly wipe out encampments of San - killing all the men and taking the women and children into captivity, and did this for decades until the British took over in 1795.

That's significantly different from being subjugated into wearing wooden shoes.

Quote from: Brad on July 08, 2024, 10:31:48 PM

Quote from: Omega on July 08, 2024, 06:30:22 PMTo be fair. The Dutch were a plague on what feels like every other native culture they came across. But so were most of the other seagoing powers of the time.

Fair enough, but honestly I'd rather be subjugated into wearing wooden shoes than hacked into pieces with a machete and eaten.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 08, 2024, 09:55:25 PMThis is why I think including B2 as the 'intro' adventure for most of Moldvay Basic's run was a misstep--it required groups to engage with those questions from the start, instead of letting them get into it as they grew more familiar with the game.

I think this is a prime example of reality not fitting with the "current narrative". People talk about the morality behind killing baby orcs NOW, but I cannot ever remember something like this coming up in any game I ever played. Orcs? Evil bastards, says so right in the Monster Manual, so kill away.

Greetings!

Yes, KILL THEM ALL! Let God Sort Them Out! *Laughing*

As the DM, I try to avoid telling my Players what to think, how to behave, or how to interpret morality. I seek to let them arrive at the answers for their own questions. *Laughing*

Of course, I certainly *encourage* a strong moral ethic in the campaign through the mouths of various NPC's, or whatever written book or scroll on philosophy that the Player Characters may come into possession of, and read. There are, also of course, books of sacred Scriptures for several large and prominent religions, so the Player Characters can also find inspiration for their own moral philosophy within the pages of such revered books.

Much to my Players lament--I can generally do a pretty good job of playing "Devil's Advocate" and present strong and persuasive arguments for whatever philosophy. Yes, it certainly helps that I was the President of the Philosophy Club in college, and I regularly participated in official, organized college debates. Having such background experience has at least a few benefits--and, I am glad, can also be entertaining. *Laughing*

In my Thandor campaign, for example, I have various NPC's that certainly promote the philosophy that all such humanoids are dark, evil savages, and should be exterminated ruthlessly, at every opportunity. Then, of course, I have other NPC's, usually of a different religion or philosophical belief--though sometimes, such NPC's can also be members of the same religion as the Player Characters--that promote a different philosophy, and embrace different moral, religious, or legal approaches.

It definitely contributes to some very entertaining game sessions! It is funny, as well, because sometimes, the Player Characters themselves get into some of the exact debates we have here on the website! I have enjoyed watching them have huge discussions, in-character, between their characters about some of this stuff for an hour or more. Hilarious!

Most people don't change their minds drastically, and usually are happy to stick to their guns, so to speak. So, great debates are typically not settled with some kind of dramatic, kumbaya outcome. Some, even become more entrenched and strident in their beliefs. Most of the time, whatever the disagreements between various Player Characters or NPC's, usually some kind of compromise can be hashed out, specifically on a case-by-case situation.

From my view, 50,000 feet up as the DM, well, yes. Of course the evil races of humanoids are generally, 80% to 95% EVIL, depending on the particular race. Some creatures, of course, like Demons, are absolutely 100% EVIL. With mortal races of creatures, humanoids in particular, I also like having broad alignment "Flags". Or "Hats". *Laughing* It's fun, and just easier. However, having just a bit of alignment variation amongst different humanoid races can provide interesting campaign elements.

Good stuff, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK