Hello friends!

I am Lilith Cohen, I run the company Mating Press LLC!

FATAL 2 - The End of Humanity

I have crafted the perfect sequel to the OSR King, FATAL.

I would like some opinions and thoughts on this project

Has Byron Hall transitioned?

PS boys and girls, I downloaded it. It's as awful as the last one.

I guess the only even marginally interesting thing here is the why of making this. The writers don't appear to be fans of FATAL. As far as I know, there are no fans of FATAL. It doesn't look like a sincere effort to make a game for people to play. Certainly no one was asking for a second edition of FATAL.  It doesn't look like a joke-game, since the writing is making no effort to be funny. So I guess it's a troll. Trolling who, though? The book includes several nods to left-wing politics, which combined with this post I take to mean it's an attempt to troll the OSR. If so, it's a miss. FATAL was not an OSR game, and pretty much everyone in the OSR hates it. I suppose there's an outside chance this is a genuine attempt to make a version of FATAL which is palatable to a left-leaning audience. If so, I wish you luck because that is one hell of an uphill battle.

The company name is funny at least.

I'm reminded of a woman I met who was formerly-Jewish and became a Wiccan, and who ran us through a session of Vampire where our characters were Mossad vampires and we said the blessing over wine while drinking blood (Judaism forbids the consumption of blood products), and where we went to a lesbian nightclub where partygoers were eating each-other's genitals which constantly regenerated, and...

I couldn't see the point, but some people like to be transgressive for its own sake. It's puerile.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 04, 2024, 12:44:47 AMHas Byron Hall transitioned?

PS boys and girls, I downloaded it. It's as awful as the last one.

No. Byron Hall is not me. Unless he did transition without my knowledge.

Also. It's as bad as the first? I'd say the combat at the very least is a marked improvement, being switched over to a hex grid with facing.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 04, 2024, 08:34:27 PMI guess the only even marginally interesting thing here is the why of making this. The writers don't appear to be fans of FATAL. As far as I know, there are no fans of FATAL. It doesn't look like a sincere effort to make a game for people to play. Certainly no one was asking for a second edition of FATAL.  It doesn't look like a joke-game, since the writing is making no effort to be funny. So I guess it's a troll. Trolling who, though? The book includes several nods to left-wing politics, which combined with this post I take to mean it's an attempt to troll the OSR. If so, it's a miss. FATAL was not an OSR game, and pretty much everyone in the OSR hates it. I suppose there's an outside chance this is a genuine attempt to make a version of FATAL which is palatable to a left-leaning audience. If so, I wish you luck because that is one hell of an uphill battle.

The company name is funny at least.

Yes, we are fans of FATAL.

And I think, if you actually read the rulebook, you'll find FATAL 2 is far more playable than the original works. Yes, there is some humor in it, but, the main design goal at the end of the day, was to make something you can actually play while also saying "wow, that's kinda fucked". Among other things.

I only called it OSR because the original FATAL was being worked on pre-9/11 and mostly as a joke. You can question my motives for doing this project, or claim it's a troll or psy-op, or whatever,

And no, this was not an effort to court the left-leaning audience. While I did post a similar forum thread to RPGnet and promptly got banned (as you do on RPGnet), it wasn't a genuine effort to court them.

I honestly just want people to see this project. Even if they hate it.

Quote from: Mating_Press_LLC on July 07, 2024, 06:15:02 PMYes, we are fans of FATAL.

Okay, now I'm curious. Why? I've literally never before seen someone with a positive word to say about that game.

If you're familiar with the history of FATAL and its status as a universal RPG punching bag, you can probably understand why someone might be suspicious of your motives in making another one. Anyone who associates with the OSR scene is going to be doubly leery of it, because the OSR has had to deal with the accusation that not only is FATAL an OSR game, but that all OSR games are like FATAL.

But alright, I'll take it back and assume sincerity pro tem. A few bits of feedback, then:

First up, how sure are you of your copywrite grounds here? From what I've heard, Byron Hall has pretty much disappeared from the public eye, but presumably he's still out there. I'm not an IP lawyer, but publishing a second edition of someone else's game without their consent sounds like a dangerous proposition to me.

Quote from: Mating_Press_LLC on July 07, 2024, 06:15:02 PMthe main design goal at the end of the day, was to make something you can actually play while also saying "wow, that's kinda fucked".

In general, I'd say that you'd probably benefit from divorcing yourself from the FATAL brand. You've already seen the kind of reflexive hostility it generates. If the design goal is what you said, I think it'd be better served by making a "spiritual successor", rather than a second edition. Maybe call it FUTILE or something, so people will still get what you're doing. You might also benefit from a more explicit author's forward explaining why you're making this game. How people react to this kind of edgy shit is largely contingent on the authorial intent they read into it.

As far as the pdf itself goes, I can't give you much mechanical feedback. Honestly, my eyes glaze over when I try to read this kind of overwrought simulationist game design. If the goal is to make a game that achieves what FATAL does in terms of having a similar setting and being a super-edgy x-rated game, while being more playable, I would either pare down the complexity significantly, or at least include alternate rules for simplifying the game.

There are many misguided assumptions that underly the design of the original FATAL, but probably the worst is the idea that something can't be done in a game unless there are detailed rules for it.  15 attributes and over 100 skills is too much, especially if you're going to have unique rules for each skill. Time is money in RPG design, so I'd recommend you go through the skill list and ask yourself what each skill adds to the game, how often it's likely to be used, and whether that's worth your time as a writer or the player's time reading the entry and having to look it up during play. If not, either cut it, or bundle several skills together.

One concrete thing that jumped out to me skimming through the pdf is a lot of repetition in the writing, both of words and of information. It shows up several times in the race entries, where the Biology section restates information which is given in the paragraph above, often in the same words. You don't need to open two consecutive paragraphs with "Kobolds are short humanoids", and you don't need sentences like "A character's anus has two attributes associated with the anus". I assume a lot of this is rough draft or placeholder text, but the pdf would benefit from a top-to-bottom readthrough with an eye to word repetition and unnecessary clauses (as well as correcting some of the iffy grammar and misplaced punctuation).

Quote from: Mating_Press_LLC on July 07, 2024, 06:15:02 PMI'd say the combat at the very least is a marked improvement, being switched over to a hex grid with facing.

I don't know what the combat was like in the original FATAL, but facing is a terrible system. It mandates use of the hex grid, adds unnecessary calculations to every attack, and people don't stand stock still in combat and face a single direction. So it manages to be both clunky and unrealistic. Having a "ganging up" rule is more than sufficient to cover that purpose.

QuoteI'd say that you'd probably benefit from divorcing yourself from the FATAL brand.

If you look at the actual text, you'll see that the authour has in no way, shape or form divorced themselves from the original FATAL or its branding.

For example, they include a skill for urination. They also have a magical item, "Bugbear Spagenhelm: While wearing this helm, you receive +4 bonus to checks made to rape."

The text is full of this nonsense. It's puerile edgelord stuff.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 09, 2024, 12:12:38 AM

QuoteI'd say that you'd probably benefit from divorcing yourself from the FATAL brand.

If you look at the actual text, you'll see that the authour has in no way, shape or form divorced themselves from the original FATAL or its branding.

For example, they include a skill for urination. They also have a magical item, "Bugbear Spagenhelm: While wearing this helm, you receive +4 bonus to checks made to rape."

The text is full of this nonsense. It's puerile edgelord stuff.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 08, 2024, 01:39:18 PM

Quote from: Mating_Press_LLC on July 07, 2024, 06:15:02 PMYes, we are fans of FATAL.

Okay, now I'm curious. Why? I've literally never before seen someone with a positive word to say about that game.

If you're familiar with the history of FATAL and its status as a universal RPG punching bag, you can probably understand why someone might be suspicious of your motives in making another one. Anyone who associates with the OSR scene is going to be doubly leery of it, because the OSR has had to deal with the accusation that not only is FATAL an OSR game, but that all OSR games are like FATAL.

But alright, I'll take it back and assume sincerity pro tem. A few bits of feedback, then:

First up, how sure are you of your copywrite grounds here? From what I've heard, Byron Hall has pretty much disappeared from the public eye, but presumably he's still out there. I'm not an IP lawyer, but publishing a second edition of someone else's game without their consent sounds like a dangerous proposition to me.

Quote from: Mating_Press_LLC on July 07, 2024, 06:15:02 PMthe main design goal at the end of the day, was to make something you can actually play while also saying "wow, that's kinda fucked".

In general, I'd say that you'd probably benefit from divorcing yourself from the FATAL brand. You've already seen the kind of reflexive hostility it generates. If the design goal is what you said, I think it'd be better served by making a "spiritual successor", rather than a second edition. Maybe call it FUTILE or something, so people will still get what you're doing. You might also benefit from a more explicit author's forward explaining why you're making this game. How people react to this kind of edgy shit is largely contingent on the authorial intent they read into it.

As far as the pdf itself goes, I can't give you much mechanical feedback. Honestly, my eyes glaze over when I try to read this kind of overwrought simulationist game design. If the goal is to make a game that achieves what FATAL does in terms of having a similar setting and being a super-edgy x-rated game, while being more playable, I would either pare down the complexity significantly, or at least include alternate rules for simplifying the game.

There are many misguided assumptions that underly the design of the original FATAL, but probably the worst is the idea that something can't be done in a game unless there are detailed rules for it.  15 attributes and over 100 skills is too much, especially if you're going to have unique rules for each skill. Time is money in RPG design, so I'd recommend you go through the skill list and ask yourself what each skill adds to the game, how often it's likely to be used, and whether that's worth your time as a writer or the player's time reading the entry and having to look it up during play. If not, either cut it, or bundle several skills together.

One concrete thing that jumped out to me skimming through the pdf is a lot of repetition in the writing, both of words and of information. It shows up several times in the race entries, where the Biology section restates information which is given in the paragraph above, often in the same words. You don't need to open two consecutive paragraphs with "Kobolds are short humanoids", and you don't need sentences like "A character's anus has two attributes associated with the anus". I assume a lot of this is rough draft or placeholder text, but the pdf would benefit from a top-to-bottom readthrough with an eye to word repetition and unnecessary clauses (as well as correcting some of the iffy grammar and misplaced punctuation).

Quote from: Mating_Press_LLC on July 07, 2024, 06:15:02 PMI'd say the combat at the very least is a marked improvement, being switched over to a hex grid with facing.

I don't know what the combat was like in the original FATAL, but facing is a terrible system. It mandates use of the hex grid, adds unnecessary calculations to every attack, and people don't stand stock still in combat and face a single direction. So it manages to be both clunky and unrealistic. Having a "ganging up" rule is more than sufficient to cover that purpose.

I'll take that all into consideration! The repetition in words is a legitimate problem, as this is a rough draft. So thank you.

I like needless complexity. It really tickles that special part of my brain, which shows I may have autism.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 04, 2024, 08:34:27 PMFATAL was not an OSR game, and pretty much everyone in the OSR hates it.

There have been people from the get go of the OSR who have tried to claim ANY old game is either part of the OSR or fair game to steal under the shield of the OSR. Part of why the OSR got a bad rep so fast.

Quote from: Mating_Press_LLC on July 12, 2024, 02:18:26 AMI like needless complexity.

I have very little patience for that sort of thing these days. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on July 14, 2024, 09:19:49 AM

Quote from: Mating_Press_LLC on July 12, 2024, 02:18:26 AMI like needless complexity.

I have very little patience for that sort of thing these days. 

3e D&D was too much for me. I could do it. But it was not not my thing.

5e nearly pushes the wrong buttons for me. More widgets for a ADHD players who freak out if on level up they dont get something.

Quote from: yosemitemike on July 14, 2024, 09:19:49 AM

Quote from: Mating_Press_LLC on July 12, 2024, 02:18:26 AMI like needless complexity.

I have very little patience for that sort of thing these days. 

That's completely fair! This is an autism project. It won't appeal to everyone. :^)

Quote from: Omega on July 14, 2024, 06:35:54 PM3e D&D was too much for me. I could do it. But it was not not my thing.

5e nearly pushes the wrong buttons for me. More widgets for a ADHD players who freak out if on level up they dont get something.

I think that kind of class progression is almost mandated if you're going to have open multiclassing. You can't very well give out most of the class abilities at level one if there's nothing to stop someone taking a one level "dip" in every class. But then the progression system encourages the whole culture of build paths and level dips, so it becomes kind of self-perpetuating.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 15, 2024, 10:38:24 PMI think that kind of class progression is almost mandated if you're going to have open multiclassing. You can't very well give out most of the class abilities at level one if there's nothing to stop someone taking a one level "dip" in every class. But then the progression system encourages the whole culture of build paths and level dips, so it becomes kind of self-perpetuating.

But you could do exactly that in AD&D. Multi or dual class and get 75% of the class right there. Just you would not have all the real bonuses like multi-attack, spell slots, spells and all that.

Not surprisingly, this is poorly thought through and confusing.

e.g.

Roll on a chart for genital size (specified in inches) but then the text utilizes the result of your roll in centimeters. Furthermore, it seems like the average man in this game setting is so well endowed that he can only fit the tip in when getting it on with an average female.

Crazy.