Quote from: Anon Adderlan on June 11, 2024, 01:16:54 AM

Quote from: RNGm on June 09, 2024, 11:03:47 AMand then even more surprised to see the channel just basically shut after raising so much.

Seems she just shifted from growing the community to engaging the community, which makes sense for someone who does care about the players more than the money.

Youtube subscribers aren't part of the community?  Or just not worth engaging with on the site even minimally with content?

Quote from: Alex K on June 11, 2024, 05:56:33 AMI don't think the lower YouTube profile of the game means it's "dead" in anyway.

Was anyone claiming that?  I certainly wasn't when I mentioned youtube activity specifically in the thread.

Quote from: RNGm on June 12, 2024, 12:19:39 AMYoutube subscribers aren't part of the community?  Or just not worth engaging with on the site even minimally with content?

Youtube is becoming like Facebook. Its where the grammas and grandpas hang out and post pictures of their grandkids and their indulgent Boomer cruise ship vacations. Its not where people Kelsey's age or younger do much of anything anymore. It's been eclipsed and superceded as an avenue for engagement by TikTok, Discord and other venues.

I'm currently running a Shadowdark game, and we're really enjoying it.  It plays incredibly smooth and fast and intuitive at the table, which is what I want in a game these days.   My players and I are all gamers from the 1970's and 1980's who grew up with the early versions of D&D, and Shadowdark just gets to the heart of what we want in a D&D game.  I also honestly thought the torch timer thing would be a dumb gimmick that we would not use, but we tried it, and to my surprise my players enjoyed it.

Shadowdark also seems so far to be the game that I feel the need to houserule the least.  Every system I've run, I've created house rules for.  But after reading the SD rules, a slight modification in the way searches are handled is the only thing I had the urge to houserule.  The game just plays really well as written.

Obviously the game is not for everyone.  If you like alot of crunch and large, in-depth rulebooks, Shadowdark probably isn't for you.  But if you're looking for a light and lean D&D that runs smooth as silk, Shadowdark is a really nice game.  And nobody at my table cares about how groundbreaking or innovate the rules may or may not be, when all we want is a night of simple and fun D&D, which this game delivers in a really nice way.

Quote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PMKelsey is more successful and *richer* than anyone on this board, including Pundit.

That's nice for her.  It's irrelevant to my opinion of the game.     

Quote from: yosemitemike on June 16, 2024, 05:55:29 AM

Quote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PMKelsey is more successful and *richer* than anyone on this board, including Pundit.

That's nice for her.  It's irrelevant to my opinion of the game.     

Greetings!

Yeah, you are right, Yosemitemike. I made the point however, because of people second-guessing her marketing choices, why doesn't she sell her game this way, or she needs to market her game this way--and on and on. Well, clearly, as her financial and business success demonstrates, she clearly knows more about this than most. She clearly knows what she is doing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Crusader X on June 15, 2024, 11:27:16 AMI'm currently running a Shadowdark game, and we're really enjoying it.  It plays incredibly smooth and fast and intuitive at the table, which is what I want in a game these days.   My players and I are all gamers from the 1970's and 1980's who grew up with the early versions of D&D, and Shadowdark just gets to the heart of what we want in a D&D game.  I also honestly thought the torch timer thing would be a dumb gimmick that we would not use, but we tried it, and to my surprise my players enjoyed it.

Nice to hear some actual play reports of the system. One of my concerns on it is that it was tested a lot at cons so I worry it works well for low levels/one shots, but not for long term campaigns. I'll be curious to hear more if the level 10 limit is an issue or if wizards sort of break down as they level up and get a lot of spells they can cast, since there isn't a spell slot system.

For me AD&D was such a great system because it could handle campaigns that'd last through years of play.

I have zero interest in Shadowdark, but for me, these last few comments sum up what I want in a system: Fast play that I can tinker with a bit without breaking it along with the depth to sustain longer campaigns and different play styles.  I already have that in B/X and Castles & Crusades.  But if others prefer Shadowdark for these reasons, good for them.

I want to hear more about the "torch timer" in actual play because that's the ONE thing about Shadowdark that's given me pause. Why not just buy lots of torches, scrolls of light, etc?

However, the vitriol against this game seems a tad odd to me. Every OSR game is going to be "glorified houserules" slapped onto B/X or AD&D frame. That's kinda the general definition of the OSR.

As an OD&D fan, I don't NEED any other fantasy RPG, but I'm always open to something new and cool if it adds some new dimension to actual gameplay.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on June 11, 2024, 01:16:54 AMSeems she just shifted from growing the community to engaging the community, which makes sense for someone who does care about the players more than the money.

I've been going through Designers & Dragons and in the 80s volume he specifically said one of the companies (I don't remember which, some game I never played) did just that with their own community and the community loved it but it led to their eventual irrelevance and end of the company. The same thing nearly happened to Columbia Games as well (but Columbia apparently pulled out by selling on Drivethru in the period after the one covered by the books).

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2024, 09:31:58 PMHowever, the vitriol against this game seems a tad odd to me. Every OSR game is going to be "glorified houserules" slapped onto B/X or AD&D frame. That's kinda the general definition of the OSR.

Maybe I'm the wrong person to answer this, since I don't actually hate the game. Personally I just find it mystifying that "slightly houseruled Basic D&D" is worth millions of dollars. If I was going to speculate on the perspective of someone who does hate it, it essentially boils down to drama. A few factors:

--1. people are likely to resent when something that they think is unworthy is more successful than things they think deserve the recognition.
--2. The marketing really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. YouTubers that a lot of people respected like DungeonCraft and Runehammer essentially outed themselves as willing to go over the top to shill a friend's product, which is always a bad look. That burned a lot of people's perceptions of these personalities, which is going to leave a bad taste in the mouth.
--3. Some of the game's defenders exhibit a frankly weird tendency to act as if the author is a personal friend and treat any criticism of the game as an attack on her. It comes across as simping, and I think the defenders accidentally cast her into the "fake gamer girl" stereotype by doing it.

Separately, I want to take issue with the idea that OSR games are inevitably going to be reskins of old D&D editions. A lot of them are, but I used to think the point of the OSR was to take those old games as a basis to build something new on. Machinations of the Space Princess, Lion & Dragon, Helveczia, Stars Without Number and The Hero's Journey are all games that most people would call OSR, and I would say are much more than just "glorified houserules slapped onto B/X or AD&D frame". Personally, I'd rather see more of that from the OSR.

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2024, 09:31:58 PMI want to hear more about the "torch timer" in actual play because that's the ONE thing about Shadowdark that's given me pause. Why not just buy lots of torches, scrolls of light, etc?

I'm probably like you.  I find real-time torch timers as a weird and illogical rule.   To me I would treat it as an optional rule, and immediately opt to never use it.

From the reports of people who have tried torch timers it is surprisingly popular and they recommend others give it a go.

So, am I reconsidering using real-time torch tracking?   Hell no.  It's still weird and illogical to me and I will not use it. 

Been lurking a long time, finally decided to post to jump into this discussion.

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2024, 09:31:58 PMI want to hear more about the "torch timer" in actual play because that's the ONE thing about Shadowdark that's given me pause. Why not just buy lots of torches, scrolls of light, etc?

I sort of get where you guys are coming from, that a "real-time" torch timer sounds stupid, illogical, etc. I will tell you from my experience playing since 1983, none of my groups ever really played hardcore torchlight rules. Like rations and encumbrance, it usually (not always) got chucked out the window to make room for "fun". Not everyone will agree. There are a million styles of play.

So, GMing Shadowdark for my family in the last month, we use the torch rule. I set a 1 hour timer on my phone when they light a torch or cast Light, and that's it. It's really simple. Basically, everyone forgets about it unless something specifically happens to the light (a monster like a darkmantle makes it go out, a carrion crawler bee-lines for it and snatches it out of their hand, etc.). Otherwise, the timer goes off in the middle of whatever they are doing. More often than not, it goes out at the worst time, like in combat. One time it went out at a time and place in a module that specifically had bad consequences for losing the light. It adds a strategic element to the game, for very little investment (setting a timer on your phone), that would otherwise be missing from many non-hardcore, non-simulationist games.

Someone above said, why not just buy a crap ton of torches? Well, you could, but your inventory is limited. And even then, when it goes out, you have to light a new one, and that's done at disadvantage in the dark unless you're a thief. Yes, you can houserule it to say you light the next before the last goes out or whatever. You're free to ignore it any any other rule in any system.

I'm not entirely sure why people are so turned off by it. Is it because you think you'll only get through 2-3 rounds in 1 real time hour so it isn't lasting long enough to be realistic? Is it because you want to be more simulationist? I'm a little puzzled. If it's the simulationist thing, then yeah rules-light systems aren't going to be for you. Why would torches in a fantasy medieval world all last exactly 10 turns or whatever in D&D? Are they coming off of some industrialized factory floor that is ensuring each and every torch is exactly the same shape and size and contains the exact same amount of pitch and sap? Maybe that's weird to play that way.

I also frequently see the complaint that it isn't doing anything new, and is just good presentation. Isn't that exactly what everyone was lauding OSE for all these years? It's just B/X but great presentation.

Anyway, the long and short of it is that the ruleset is very streamlined and plays very intuitively and fast at the table. I've played various incarnations of D&D/C&C/OSE rules with my family, and when we switched to Shadowdark this summer, my kids told me they were relieved to not have to remember so many rules and different mechanics. It has its place, it just may not be at your table.

A lot of the illogical aspects of a torch timer is that combat goes way slower when rolling dice and describing it than it actually should.

Also, I bet the GM is not describing the condition of the torch that a character is holding to the player as you play.  That's something the character can't help but notice.  The torch is right there.  You would notice it getting low, sputtering out, etc. 

So, no.  I'm never going to use a torch timer.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on July 03, 2024, 09:38:15 AMA lot of the illogical aspects of a torch timer is that combat goes way slower when rolling dice and describing it than it actually should.

This is exactly my complaint. One minute of combat can take an hour to play out at the table.