I'll speak for Talislanta specifically.

People have criticized Talislanta for years on contradictory things like "It's too exotic." inversely "It's just humans in different colors." Or as advertised "NO ELVES!" then contrarians will screesh - "Dude all these races are elves! They got pointed ears!". Rarely has anyone ever actually PLAYED Talislanta and gave it any real criticism other than these surface features.

The fact is - not many people played the damn game which is a goddamn shame. There is literally NO REASON TO NOT PLAY IT - it's FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!. All FIVE EDITIONS! Free. Legal. A gift from Steve Sechi, the creator to all of us, the lovers of RPG's.

Yes, Talisanta has its fans, and they are diehard. But we're all ghosts screaming from the edge of town into the wind for all its worth. Talislanta, in my honest opinion, is an unsung game and one of the best ever made.

The system, the original d20 system! still looms large in design. It's *fantastic*. It scales, it uses basic math. No weird symbols. It has degrees of success. It takes into account the skill of PC's. It had crits/fumbles long before they were ever official in D&D. And it always amazed me how the system, once pulled free of Talislanta (The OMNI System) never got traction... alas that's another discussion.

Let's talk about the exotic nature of Talislanta. Is it non-European? I mean... it's got Kingdoms and Empires, but it's nothing expressly European by analogy if only in the most vague terms. But I'd say modern D&D isn't either. Was it exotic vs. 1e D&D, its contemporary? Sure, I'll give it to you...

ONLY if you're saying that "humans" are the real deciding factor. Yes, there are no Elves in Talislanta. But there are no humans either. Talislanta is "exotic" like Star Wars is exotic. Star Wars has humans, Talislanta has Archaens which with a squint are just humans with slightly pointed ears and light green skin. Ironically, you'd say they look vaguely like Elves. You'd say their culture is a fantasy pastiche of high-magic that has been completely ripped off by the Netheril culture of the Forgotten Realms (and while I have no proof - I'll maintain to this very fucking day and argue the point that the entirety of Netheril and ALL the concept of it was "inspired" (i.e. ripped off) from Talislanta. But I'd probably say Talislanta was inspired by all the cool shit Sechi was reading while on magic mushrooms like Jack Vance, and probably some Lord Dunsany or something.

Talislanta *should not* freak players or GM's out. You can do any kind of thematic thing you'd want to play in any mainline D&D game, plus the core concept of the Seven Kingdoms in Talislanta is such that you get to play in a high fantasy mageocracy (it pretends it's not a Mageocracy but it is) that TOTALLY embraces the style of play that reeks of high-magic abuse. BUT the system self-regulates and embraces casters as glass-canons.

It does everything D&D of the past and the present wishes it could do. Want to do some Sword and Sorcery? Talislanta has you covered. Outside the Seven Kingdoms and mighty Empires that flourish on the continent, it is BESTIAL and SAVAGE. You have lots of reasons to go out there too - the secrets of the ancient culture that dominated the world has ruins galore. (sound familiar doesn't it? Talislanta DID IT BETTER). You can be a swashbuckler, a pillager, thief and savage pit-fighter - Conan would be right at home. You can be a bard and entertainer, courtesan, aristocrat and political partisan - yeah they have Progressive vs. Conservative politics cooked into the cultures too. It's great. You want bad guys? The entire continent is teaming with them outside of civilization. The Beast Men - better than orcs. Some have even gone "pseudo-civilized" and you can play them. You want Asian-themed stuff - the Kang Empire, basically Klingons with red skin, got you covered. You want Hutt Crime cartels? The Quan (former rulers of the Kang) are slowly trying to reclaim their power. The golden skinned Mandalans and their ninja- err "Mystic Warriors" are undermining the power-structures of their Kang Daim-uhh... Warlords. Oh yeah - they got martial-arts. OOO exotic.

What I'm saying is this: Talislanta navigates the cultural analogs WITHIN fantasy that we all like, with a dash or hint of real-world inspiration and goes one level deeper. It feels a little exotic, but not so exotic that you won't immediately take to it like a fish in different waters. And it rests on top of RIDICULOUSLY good system. All the editions are 98% compatible. If you like classes go 3e.

It's has incredible lore which you can TOTALLY IGNORE.

It has a prequel game which I helped write - if you wanna go grimdark you can try my version, a prequel set after The Great Cataclysm. Very low magic, but very high chop-chop. Talislanta: The Savage Lands .

My hot sports opinion: The reason people never play Talislanta is simply because they never really played it. I don't know of anyone that actually has run Talislanta that hasn't gotten their groups to play it on the regular. I suspect people just hear about it in posts online like this one, and go "Oh yeah, I remember those ads in Dragon." and come up with some reason to simply not run it. Most players only play what they get served, so...

What makes it work is because 1) it's well designed with intensely good internal consistency. 2) the setting is old-school sandbox, it's made to let GM's break shit and go wild 3) the setting mechanics are robust and EASY while maintain scalability unheard of back then and even now it still is head and shoulders above most other systems. 4) Its only failing is it never quite got enough GM's to run people regularly enough to hit escape velocity. Instead it's remained in the limbo of "Oh yeah! That game." in the pantheon of RPGs. Which is a shame.

Greetings!

Beautiful, TENBONES!

*Laughing* Yes, yes, I was subliminally calling you to comment in this thread! I knew you would not disappoint us! You come in like an A-10 Warthog, chain-gun blazing!

I have always loved Talislanta!

So much so, truth be told, as I could not really get my player groups into Talislanta--so I was continuously inspired to bring many aspects of Talislanta into my own world of Thandor. But you knew that already, my friend!

Such an awesome post, Tenbones!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hmmm, I do agree on just about everything you say, tenbones, except for the "if your group tried it, they'll like it!" Because the assumption thereafter doesn't carry: groups don't necessarily stick with playing it (basically they don't with the switch of systems and settings). Even as GM I found people would rather shrug about doing it again and go back to the popular & familiar.

Talislanta IS great. I tried it, I liked it, I'd like to run it again. I thought I could cultivate new fans. But casuals would politely try it once and rather go back to the popular, and hard cores are already invested in mastery and would rather go back to the familiar.

But as one of my buddy's culinary teacher said:
"The secret to good business is the familiar and a hint of the new, and keeping costs down (the priceless silicone scraper). Every pastry shop that lasts follows this pattern of following expectations. In a Western pastry shop this is the core four: 1) a cakey plain thingie, 2) a creamy vanilla thingie, 3) a chocolate thingie, and 4) either a nutty thingie (allergies) or a fruity thingie (seasonal availability). If you are feeling your oats you can have a fifth mystery thingie and see how adventurous your local market demographic is, but don't feel you can 'teach' your customers what they'd prefer because it doesn't work well."

Even if people did like the experience they often don't seek it out thereafter. They follow the popular. They seek the familiar with a hint of the new.

Tragically it seems the human nature answer to this topic, for profit and lasting change, is "Change 20% or less and resell the old wine in new casings." Open-minded travelers are less prevalent than we want for sharing our favorite things.

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 01, 2024, 10:46:32 PMHmmm, I do agree on just about everything you say, tenbones, except for the "if your group tried it, they'll like it!" Because the assumption thereafter doesn't carry: groups don't necessarily stick with playing it (basically they don't with the switch of systems and settings). Even as GM I found people would rather shrug about doing it again and go back to the popular & familiar.

Talislanta IS great. I tried it, I liked it, I'd like to run it again. I thought I could cultivate new fans. But casuals would politely try it once and rather go back to the popular, and hard cores are already invested in mastery and would rather go back to the familiar.

But as one of my buddy's culinary teacher said:
"The secret to good business is the familiar and a hint of the new, and keeping costs down (the priceless silicone scraper). Every pastry shop that lasts follows this pattern of following expectations. In a Western pastry shop this is the core four: 1) a cakey plain thingie, 2) a creamy vanilla thingie, 3) a chocolate thingie, and 4) either a nutty thingie (allergies) or a fruity thingie (seasonal availability). If you are feeling your oats you can have a fifth mystery thingie and see how adventurous your local market demographic is, but don't feel you can 'teach' your customers what they'd prefer because it doesn't work well."

Even if people did like the experience they often don't seek it out thereafter. They follow the popular. They seek the familiar with a hint of the new.

Tragically it seems the human nature answer to this topic, for profit and lasting change, is "Change 20% or less and resell the old wine in new casings." Open-minded travelers are less prevalent than we want for sharing our favorite things.

During my MBA program I had a marketing professor named Tom Kinnear who is pretty prominent in his field.  He put it this way:  "Changing customer behavior is the hardest thing in the world"

Quote from: tenbones on July 01, 2024, 04:35:56 PMI'll speak for Talislanta specifically.

People have criticized Talislanta for years on contradictory things like "It's too exotic." inversely "It's just humans in different colors." Or as advertised "NO ELVES!" then contrarians will screesh - "Dude all these races are elves! They got pointed ears!". Rarely has anyone ever actually PLAYED Talislanta and gave it any real criticism other than these surface features.

The fact is - not many people played the damn game which is a goddamn shame. There is literally NO REASON TO NOT PLAY IT - it's FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!. All FIVE EDITIONS! Free. Legal. A gift from Steve Sechi, the creator to all of us, the lovers of RPG's.

Yes, Talisanta has its fans, and they are diehard. But we're all ghosts screaming from the edge of town into the wind for all its worth. Talislanta, in my honest opinion, is an unsung game and one of the best ever made.

The system, the original d20 system! still looms large in design. It's *fantastic*. It scales, it uses basic math. No weird symbols. It has degrees of success. It takes into account the skill of PC's. It had crits/fumbles long before they were ever official in D&D. And it always amazed me how the system, once pulled free of Talislanta (The OMNI System) never got traction... alas that's another discussion.

Let's talk about the exotic nature of Talislanta. Is it non-European? I mean... it's got Kingdoms and Empires, but it's nothing expressly European by analogy if only in the most vague terms. But I'd say modern D&D isn't either. Was it exotic vs. 1e D&D, its contemporary? Sure, I'll give it to you...

ONLY if you're saying that "humans" are the real deciding factor. Yes, there are no Elves in Talislanta. But there are no humans either. Talislanta is "exotic" like Star Wars is exotic. Star Wars has humans, Talislanta has Archaens which with a squint are just humans with slightly pointed ears and light green skin. Ironically, you'd say they look vaguely like Elves. You'd say their culture is a fantasy pastiche of high-magic that has been completely ripped off by the Netheril culture of the Forgotten Realms (and while I have no proof - I'll maintain to this very fucking day and argue the point that the entirety of Netheril and ALL the concept of it was "inspired" (i.e. ripped off) from Talislanta. But I'd probably say Talislanta was inspired by all the cool shit Sechi was reading while on magic mushrooms like Jack Vance, and probably some Lord Dunsany or something.

Talislanta *should not* freak players or GM's out. You can do any kind of thematic thing you'd want to play in any mainline D&D game, plus the core concept of the Seven Kingdoms in Talislanta is such that you get to play in a high fantasy mageocracy (it pretends it's not a Mageocracy but it is) that TOTALLY embraces the style of play that reeks of high-magic abuse. BUT the system self-regulates and embraces casters as glass-canons.

It does everything D&D of the past and the present wishes it could do. Want to do some Sword and Sorcery? Talislanta has you covered. Outside the Seven Kingdoms and mighty Empires that flourish on the continent, it is BESTIAL and SAVAGE. You have lots of reasons to go out there too - the secrets of the ancient culture that dominated the world has ruins galore. (sound familiar doesn't it? Talislanta DID IT BETTER). You can be a swashbuckler, a pillager, thief and savage pit-fighter - Conan would be right at home. You can be a bard and entertainer, courtesan, aristocrat and political partisan - yeah they have Progressive vs. Conservative politics cooked into the cultures too. It's great. You want bad guys? The entire continent is teaming with them outside of civilization. The Beast Men - better than orcs. Some have even gone "pseudo-civilized" and you can play them. You want Asian-themed stuff - the Kang Empire, basically Klingons with red skin, got you covered. You want Hutt Crime cartels? The Quan (former rulers of the Kang) are slowly trying to reclaim their power. The golden skinned Mandalans and their ninja- err "Mystic Warriors" are undermining the power-structures of their Kang Daim-uhh... Warlords. Oh yeah - they got martial-arts. OOO exotic.

What I'm saying is this: Talislanta navigates the cultural analogs WITHIN fantasy that we all like, with a dash or hint of real-world inspiration and goes one level deeper. It feels a little exotic, but not so exotic that you won't immediately take to it like a fish in different waters. And it rests on top of RIDICULOUSLY good system. All the editions are 98% compatible. If you like classes go 3e.

It's has incredible lore which you can TOTALLY IGNORE.

It has a prequel game which I helped write - if you wanna go grimdark you can try my version, a prequel set after The Great Cataclysm. Very low magic, but very high chop-chop. Talislanta: The Savage Lands .

My hot sports opinion: The reason people never play Talislanta is simply because they never really played it. I don't know of anyone that actually has run Talislanta that hasn't gotten their groups to play it on the regular. I suspect people just hear about it in posts online like this one, and go "Oh yeah, I remember those ads in Dragon." and come up with some reason to simply not run it. Most players only play what they get served, so...

What makes it work is because 1) it's well designed with intensely good internal consistency. 2) the setting is old-school sandbox, it's made to let GM's break shit and go wild 3) the setting mechanics are robust and EASY while maintain scalability unheard of back then and even now it still is head and shoulders above most other systems. 4) Its only failing is it never quite got enough GM's to run people regularly enough to hit escape velocity. Instead it's remained in the limbo of "Oh yeah! That game." in the pantheon of RPGs. Which is a shame.

Okay, you say it's a great game.  I'll take you at your word.  But how do you get people to play it?

Talislanta's just too much.  Forgotten Realms or Golarion are, I think, about the high end of what most peoples' attention span can absorb when it comes to countries, cultures, religions, creatures, celebrities, etc, and Talislanta blows right past that without even slowing down.  If Talislanta's cultures got the same sourcebook treatment as the Realms, it would fill an entire shelf easily, and most people aren't going to dedicate enough of their lives to learning it.  If the setting had some movies or a TV series or something to get the gist across to people without them having to read and retain hundreds of pages, I think it would've been a massive success.

Quote from: Valatar on July 02, 2024, 01:32:43 AMIf the setting had some movies or a TV series or something to get the gist across to people without them having to read and retain hundreds of pages, I think it would've been a massive success.

Or even some devoted fan making YouTube lore breakdowns would make a big difference, much like what Mr. Welch does for Mystara. I did a YouTube search for "Talislanta lore" and turned up a single vlog from a tiny channel that only included a cursory explanation of the setting.

It might be difficult for someone like tenbones, who's clearly been into Talislanta for years now, to remember what it looks like to someone just being exposed to it for the first time.

From an outsider's perspective I think Talislanta has a few things specific to it that make it harder to for it to catch on than other non-standard fantasy settings:

One would be the lack of a clear elevator pitch. For better or for worse, most of the successful non-standard settings seem to have a pretty clear gimmick or unique selling point to them. From what I've seen, Talislanta is one of things you have to put some investment into before you "get it". Not a bad thing in and of itself, but it's always going to be a barrier to entry for outsiders. 

The other is a kind of vicious cycle that affects that kind of highly detailed, lore-rich setting. I look at Talislanta and tend to think "I'd like to play this if I could get a GM that really knows it and can run it well, but I'd be leery of running it myself first". I suspect that's not a rare sentiment. So you get people who hold off on trying the game until they can find veterans to play it with, but the only way you get those veterans is if there's active games going. The game dies on the vine because people are too intimidated to jump in. The only way the cycle breaks is if there's enough veterans out their actively pursuing new players, or enough new people who are so enthralled with it that they choose to do the necessary study to essentially become veterans before playing.

Maybe Talislanta would benefit from publishing a series of adventures expressly designed to help new GMs run the setting without needing to be lore experts first.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 02, 2024, 05:23:38 PMFor better or for worse, most of the successful non-standard settings seem to have a pretty clear gimmick or unique selling point to them. From what I've seen, Talislanta is one of things you have to put some investment into before you "get it". Not a bad thing in and of itself, but it's always going to be a barrier to entry for outsiders. 

The other is a kind of vicious cycle that affects that kind of highly detailed, lore-rich setting. I look at Talislanta and tend to think "I'd like to play this if I could get a GM that really knows it and can run it well, but I'd be leery of running it myself first". I suspect that's not a rare sentiment. So you get people who hold off on trying the game until they can find veterans to play it with, but the only way you get those veterans is if there's active games going.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 02, 2024, 05:23:38 PMMaybe Talislanta would benefit from publishing a series of adventures expressly designed to help new GMs run the setting without needing to be lore experts first.

I don't know Talislanta, but this sounds like some of the principles I mentioned early on.

1) As you say, some good introductory adventures that anyone can run out of the box.

2) A limited part of the setting that can be the focus for a short campaign, where the group doesn't have to know the whole setting.

3) A good genre hook - similar to the "elevator pitch" you mention. This doesn't have to cover the whole setting, but it should cover the starter adventures and initial setting slice.

Do these exist for Talislanta?

Quote from: jhkim on July 02, 2024, 08:33:16 PMI don't know Talislanta, but this sounds like some of the principles I mentioned early on.

1) As you say, some good introductory adventures that anyone can run out of the box.

2) A limited part of the setting that can be the focus for a short campaign, where the group doesn't have to know the whole setting.

3) A good genre hook - similar to the "elevator pitch" you mention. This doesn't have to cover the whole setting, but it should cover the starter adventures and initial setting slice.

Do these exist for Talislanta?

Tenbones would know better, but as far as I'm aware, the answer to 1 and 3 is "no". I have heard several people mention The Seven Kingdoms as the default starting zone, but from what I can see that's more analogous to Grehawk's Flanaess, or at least the Grand Duchy of Karameikhos, than it is to something like the Village of Hommlet.

Regarding number 3: There is a real danger in asking for a setting to have a clear genre hook or simple pitch. That attitude inevitably tends towards pushing a setting back into the creative box of needing to be like the other settings people already know, potentially defeating the whole point of coming up with something more unique. It's not impossible to be both original and relatable, but it's a very delicate balance.

Quote from: Mishihari on July 02, 2024, 12:35:20 AMOkay, you say it's a great game.  I'll take you at your word.  But how do you get people to play it?

Well there's the rub, now isn't it? If you as a GM are inspired to run something - you just tell your group "This is what I'm running. You in?" If you have to do the sales-pitch, which even *I* have to do with my group of veteran players that I know for a fact would play anything I'd run, it's only fair to give your players the best elevator pitch and stand firm on running it.

Players always get the final vote of not playing. That's the rule.

Quote from: SHARK on July 01, 2024, 07:20:49 PMGreetings!

Beautiful, TENBONES!

*Laughing* Yes, yes, I was subliminally calling you to comment in this thread! I knew you would not disappoint us! You come in like an A-10 Warthog, chain-gun blazing!

I have always loved Talislanta!

So much so, truth be told, as I could not really get my player groups into Talislanta--so I was continuously inspired to bring many aspects of Talislanta into my own world of Thandor. But you knew that already, my friend!

Such an awesome post, Tenbones!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Bwahah and like a demon from the void, I come when called. FRESH SOULS!

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 01, 2024, 10:46:32 PMHmmm, I do agree on just about everything you say, tenbones, except for the "if your group tried it, they'll like it!" Because the assumption thereafter doesn't carry: groups don't necessarily stick with playing it (basically they don't with the switch of systems and settings). Even as GM I found people would rather shrug about doing it again and go back to the popular & familiar.

Talislanta IS great. I tried it, I liked it, I'd like to run it again. I thought I could cultivate new fans. But casuals would politely try it once and rather go back to the popular, and hard cores are already invested in mastery and would rather go back to the familiar.

But as one of my buddy's culinary teacher said:
"The secret to good business is the familiar and a hint of the new, and keeping costs down (the priceless silicone scraper). Every pastry shop that lasts follows this pattern of following expectations. In a Western pastry shop this is the core four: 1) a cakey plain thingie, 2) a creamy vanilla thingie, 3) a chocolate thingie, and 4) either a nutty thingie (allergies) or a fruity thingie (seasonal availability). If you are feeling your oats you can have a fifth mystery thingie and see how adventurous your local market demographic is, but don't feel you can 'teach' your customers what they'd prefer because it doesn't work well."

Even if people did like the experience they often don't seek it out thereafter. They follow the popular. They seek the familiar with a hint of the new.

Tragically it seems the human nature answer to this topic, for profit and lasting change, is "Change 20% or less and resell the old wine in new casings." Open-minded travelers are less prevalent than we want for sharing our favorite things.

I'm not going to say I haven't experienced this myself. But I'll add this, every group I've ever run it for, were always open to playing it again, maybe not as a go-to, but they would always seriously consider it.

One thing that always got my players going was when I'd mix it up a bit and mix Talislanta with Spelljammer. They'd get the best of both worlds (pun intended). With Talislanta skyships and powerful magic, it makes for one hell of a port-o-call for Spelljammer. And it's an excellent way of introducing traditional D&D players to the setting.

I did the same thing with Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim.

Talislanta is a good example. I wanted to give the world a shot. I still might. It looks cool. I backed the recent edition and got my pdfs. I appreciate that past editions are free.

1) I'm kinda done with d20 games. Talislanta isn't d20 per se, but it's close enough. I would have more willing to try this system 5-10 years ago. At that time, though, the character creation would have put me off. I'm more willing to entertain what are basically pregens these days.

2) Talislanta has the first partial success system that hasn't made me want to smack the designer. At least the upcoming edition, I can't really comment on previous editions. Basically, instead turning half of the player's successes into partial failures, this takes half of the player's failures and turns them into partial successes.

3) It has elves. Lots of them. Seriously, those are elves, and so are those, and also those. I don't know which races I'm referring to, because I just got this book "last Thursday," but you know what races I'm talking about, and you know those are elves. That being said, there are some really cool races and cultures here, and while I'm on the fence about the archetype-based character creation, I do like that the archetypes serve to reinforce their racial identities.

4) There is a lot of world that is not fleshed out. Ordinarily this wouldn't be too big of a problem, except the primary appeal of Talislanta is the world.

5) I can't fly by the seat of my pants very well and make shit up, because the world is too different from what I'm used to. This is related to point 4, but I think it stands on its own.

The last two points are where I think unfamiliar settings fall down. There's too much and not enough at the same time. It's too much in terms of how different it is from what the customers are readily familiar with, but then there isn't enough support for the new setting to get them on track. They have to fill in the gaps with what they know, and then they have a familiar, traditional setting. The more they do this, the more their version of the world begins to resemble a traditional fantasy setting. Then they get to wondering why they're not just playing a traditional fantasy setting.

Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance were a lot more familiar right out of the box, but on top of that, they were supported by numerous novels. That's something a lot of the unfamiliar settings just don't have going for them.

Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2024, 10:15:08 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 01, 2024, 10:46:32 PMHmmm, I do agree on just about everything you say, tenbones, except for the "if your group tried it, they'll like it!" Because the assumption thereafter doesn't carry: groups don't necessarily stick with playing it (basically they don't with the switch of systems and settings). Even as GM I found people would rather shrug about doing it again and go back to the popular & familiar.

Talislanta IS great. I tried it, I liked it, I'd like to run it again. I thought I could cultivate new fans. But casuals would politely try it once and rather go back to the popular, and hard cores are already invested in mastery and would rather go back to the familiar.

But as one of my buddy's culinary teacher said:
"The secret to good business is the familiar and a hint of the new, and keeping costs down (the priceless silicone scraper). Every pastry shop that lasts follows this pattern of following expectations. In a Western pastry shop this is the core four: 1) a cakey plain thingie, 2) a creamy vanilla thingie, 3) a chocolate thingie, and 4) either a nutty thingie (allergies) or a fruity thingie (seasonal availability). If you are feeling your oats you can have a fifth mystery thingie and see how adventurous your local market demographic is, but don't feel you can 'teach' your customers what they'd prefer because it doesn't work well."

Even if people did like the experience they often don't seek it out thereafter. They follow the popular. They seek the familiar with a hint of the new.

Tragically it seems the human nature answer to this topic, for profit and lasting change, is "Change 20% or less and resell the old wine in new casings." Open-minded travelers are less prevalent than we want for sharing our favorite things.

I'm not going to say I haven't experienced this myself. But I'll add this, every group I've ever run it for, were always open to playing it again, maybe not as a go-to, but they would always seriously consider it.

One thing that always got my players going was when I'd mix it up a bit and mix Talislanta with Spelljammer. They'd get the best of both worlds (pun intended). With Talislanta skyships and powerful magic, it makes for one hell of a port-o-call for Spelljammer. And it's an excellent way of introducing traditional D&D players to the setting.

I did the same thing with Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim.

OK, I get it. From what I'm getting it sounds like you mix enough of the familiar back in to get up to that 80%+ familiarity and or popularity.

I'd say Talislanta is such a solid system that one could port it over direct into something very familiar, such as Forgotten Realms The North. It'd be great for mass combat rules, especially raids on caravans or oases of civilization. But is that too 50%/50% for system to setting? What would I have to add more to get that 80%+? Or am I overthinking it as Talislanta is way more familiar to D&D superficially, e.g. d20, stats, etc.?

Quote from: tenbones on July 01, 2024, 04:35:56 PMThe fact is - not many people played the damn game which is a goddamn shame. There is literally NO REASON TO NOT PLAY IT - it's FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!.

It's not though.  Not really.  It may not cost money but that's not the only cost of learning a new game.  There's also a cost in time and effort.  The more unfamiliar the game or world are, the higher this cost will be.  Talislanta is a lot to take in.