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Is Demons & Dragons the IP Theft of Basic Fantasy?

Started by jeff37923, July 01, 2024, 07:06:38 PM

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jeff37923

July 01, 2024, 07:06:38 PM
I'm late to the party on this one, but it looks like Gothic Games took Chris Gonnerman's Basic Fantasy, changed a few names, and is publishing it as Demons & Dragons on DriveThruRPG.


Demons & Dragons
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/473128/Demons--Dragons?fbclid=IwY2xjawDwFPlleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHW1bx-Ug5oh12EsAhldXbv2sgdRWtv4ct68chZ4ruuyNt0iS_wgy4ybUHQ_aem_7T61VSdWGey7QZZOLojJQg

Basic Fantasy 4th edition
https://basicfantasy.org/downloads/Basic-Fantasy-RPG-Rules-r139.pdf

"Meh."

Socratic-DM

#1
July 01, 2024, 07:39:42 PM
 If so; while extremely lazy this basically doesn't effect Basic Fantasy at all, it's already open (which is more than can be said for some RPGs in the OSR talked about here) it's already free on their website and print at cost.

It's kind of like being given a free sample at Costco, and then turning around and selling it for 50 cents, scummy but otherwise harmless.

"When every star in the heavens grows cold, and when silence lies once more on the face of the deep, three things will endure: faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love."

- First Corinthians, chapter thirteen.

jeff37923

#2
July 01, 2024, 07:59:37 PM
Quote from: Socratic-DM on July 01, 2024, 07:39:42 PMIf so; while extremely lazy this basically doesn't effect Basic Fantasy at all, it's already open (which is more than can be said for some RPGs in the OSR talked about here) it's already free on their website and print at cost.

It's kind of like being given a free sample at Costco, and then turning around and selling it for 50 cents, scummy but otherwise harmless.



I don't think that it is harmless if it sets precedent.

I'm chasing down the information, but Gothic Games may have done the same IP theft with their Wayfarer system and Cepheus Engine.
"Meh."

Trond

#3
July 01, 2024, 08:18:08 PM
Does this have anything to do with the old 1980s "Dragons & Demons" (Drakar och Demoner) from Scandinavia? That was also based on BRP, but with permission.

Omega

#4
July 01, 2024, 08:48:42 PM
Quote from: Trond on July 01, 2024, 08:18:08 PMDoes this have anything to do with the old 1980s "Dragons & Demons" (Drakar och Demoner) from Scandinavia? That was also based on BRP, but with permission.

Yeah was going to ask that too?

Did these people steal Drakkar och Demoner? Are the ducks in it?

GeekyBugle

#5
July 01, 2024, 08:57:56 PM
Quote from: Socratic-DM on July 01, 2024, 07:39:42 PMIf so; while extremely lazy this basically doesn't effect Basic Fantasy at all, it's already open (which is more than can be said for some RPGs in the OSR talked about here) it's already free on their website and print at cost.

It's kind of like being given a free sample at Costco, and then turning around and selling it for 50 cents, scummy but otherwise harmless.



Not going to spend 20 dollars to be able to verify but...

BFRPG 4th edition is published under CC By SA, so... if this product includes that license and the proper credits then it's legal, not scummy but terribly lazy if the publisher really just changed a few names and the art.

Now, if it's BFRPG re-packaged but without the same license and the credits then it's not only scummy, it's illegal.
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jeff37923

#6
July 01, 2024, 09:17:36 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 01, 2024, 08:48:42 PM
Quote from: Trond on July 01, 2024, 08:18:08 PMDoes this have anything to do with the old 1980s "Dragons & Demons" (Drakar och Demoner) from Scandinavia? That was also based on BRP, but with permission.

Yeah was going to ask that too?

Did these people steal Drakkar och Demoner? Are the ducks in it?

No, this is the Basic Fantasy OSR game by Chris Gonnerman and not the Basic Fantasy originally associated with Chaosium.
"Meh."

Dave 2

#7
July 01, 2024, 11:03:18 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 01, 2024, 07:59:37 PMI'm chasing down the information, but Gothic Games may have done the same IP theft with ... Cepheus Engine.

What chasing down? Open it up side by side with Cepheus to see if its identical or new content.

Cepheus is built off the SRD for Mongoose Traveller 1e, with some house rules in the direction of Classic. As it had to be, as 1e Mongoose was the only edition of Traveller to ever have a functional OGL. Later versions of Cepheus (they are legion) make some more transformative changes, but are still governed by the OGL, and generally still fall into the range of house rules + campaign or setting decisions for a Traveller campaign. Copying a previous iteration of Cepheus, making your own desired changes, and slapping a new word into the Cepheus [Noun] title format is how even the legitimate and innovative versions of Cepheus came to be.

If it is a straight copy and paste job, scummy is a good word. I'd want to avoid both the specific product and the publisher in general. But - can't be IP theft if the work you copied contains no IP to thieve. And Cepheus is turtles OGL all the way down.

Exploderwizard

#8
July 02, 2024, 07:55:53 AM
Gonnerman did a video about this himself. The latest iteration of Demons & dragons is technically legal. All the art was replaced with crappy art that Gothic has access to. Its still a shady thing to do, selling content that is available free from Basic Fantasy that has better art. Naming it Demons & Dragons was funny too since they replicated the contents of Basic Fantasy core which has NO demons whatsoever. Gothic is just trying to score a fast buck but Drive Thru will be the one to hear all the backlash when angry customers find out that this was ripped off content that they could have gotten a better copy of for nothing in pdf. Chris was more baffled than angry about what Gothic hopes to get out of all this.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

GhostNinja

#9
July 02, 2024, 09:31:47 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 02, 2024, 07:55:53 AMGonnerman did a video about this himself. The latest iteration of Demons & dragons is technically legal. All the art was replaced with crappy art that Gothic has access to. Its still a shady thing to do, selling content that is available free from Basic Fantasy that has better art. Naming it Demons & Dragons was funny too since they replicated the contents of Basic Fantasy core which has NO demons whatsoever. Gothic is just trying to score a fast buck but Drive Thru will be the one to hear all the backlash when angry customers find out that this was ripped off content that they could have gotten a better copy of for nothing in pdf. Chris was more baffled than angry about what Gothic hopes to get out of all this.

I am watching the gonnerman video right now.  Its weird but it seems every so often scammers who are lazy and trying to make money off other peoples work seems to appear, people bring attention to it and then the scammers disappear.

Best option is to bring attention to it and make sure people don't get scammed and buy Basic Fantasy instead of a scam version where the author did nothing.
Ghostninja

orbitalair

#11
July 02, 2024, 10:40:27 AM
I was wondering why Gonnerman did a video, he doesnt do that too often.

BF user group is pretty good, and they did a really quick turnover to CC by SA license, and track down all the artists and things.  I am amazed at the amount of proof reading that goes on in a product like that.

I helped on one module so far, I like doing that.

its really crummy to steal other peoples work like this.

Exploderwizard

#12
July 02, 2024, 10:43:32 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on July 02, 2024, 09:31:47 AMI am watching the gonnerman video right now.  Its weird but it seems every so often scammers who are lazy and trying to make money off other peoples work seems to appear, people bring attention to it and then the scammers disappear.

Best option is to bring attention to it and make sure people don't get scammed and buy Basic Fantasy instead of a scam version where the author did nothing.

I think Drive Thru is kind of scummy for continuing to offer the game after this was made public. Because they get a cut of Gothic sales and Basic Fantasy charges nothing for their pdf.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

Ruprecht

#13
July 02, 2024, 11:44:26 AM
I found a video by Todd Lyons that goes over the issue a bit and it seems that Gothic Church took a bunch of Basic Fantasy modules as well, rebranded them and changed the copyright. Changing the copyright notice goes against the creative commons with attribute license.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. ~Robert E. Howard

GhostNinja

#14
July 02, 2024, 01:17:07 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 02, 2024, 10:43:32 AMI think Drive Thru is kind of scummy for continuing to offer the game after this was made public. Because they get a cut of Gothic sales and Basic Fantasy charges nothing for their pdf.

I agree.  I think that the moment they found out they should have taken it down.  Instead they are ignoring it so they can make a profit.  Not a good look.
Ghostninja
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