Hello! I wanted to share my opinion and have a conversation on the major downside of dice-pool systems compared to systems rolling one or two dice seeking specific numbers.

With dice pool systems - classic D6's, Fate, Genesys, etc. - you collect a handful of dice depending on the check, roll, then start counting. the gratification is delayed and dampened in the process of the players and the GM reaching their conclusions of success and failure. In contrast, when using a D20, D12, or X+D6 like Savage Worlds, you "drop the bomb" - all the anticipation is in the roll, and it takes only a second to register success or failure depending on the result shown. The arc of excitement is greater, and rises to a greater crescendo with any "exploding dice" mechanics in play.

My realization of this has turned me off of dice-pool systems. Do you fellows generally concur, or can someone provide another way of looking at it?

I agree.  BTW, Fate is 4d3-8 (-4 to +4) and not a dice pool.  But, you can add World of Darkness and its pile of d10s as another example.  :-)

Quote from: zircher on June 26, 2024, 12:40:53 PMI agree.  BTW, Fate is 4d3-8 (-4 to +4) and not a dice pool.  But, you can add World of Darkness and its pile of d10s as another example.  :-)

I thought Fate used those +/- dice in pools to determine success? I apologize if I am mistaken, thank you for correcting me!

My disdain for dice pool systems goes far deeper than yours, but you've added reason #826 why I think they're stupid. +1

Quote from: Nakana on June 26, 2024, 01:18:03 PMMy disdain for dice pool systems goes far deeper than yours, but you've added reason #826 why I think they're stupid. +1

From whence does your deep disdain emerge?

True die pool systems often do have increased cognitive and handling time issues (some of them also cognitive) compared to a typical die roll versus target.  So there is a correlation.  However, it's not the die pool system, per se, that causes the issue but the cognitive load. 

The distinction doesn't matter much when looking at a full bore die pool system, since either way the resolution is delayed.  It does matter when you consider opportunity costs, and that such issues are not limited to die pool systems.

For example, consider whether or not you tell the players the AC in D&D. If you don't tell, the resolution for "I hit!" is delayed slightly.  If you do tell them, it may affect how they play (in possibly ways the group finds less than optimum).  There's a cost either way. Some groups would find one cost more acceptable than the other.  I mitigate those costs in my own system by contriving to make almost all "AC" numbers be between 10 and 15--except when there is an obvious reason why the numbers would be higher or lower.  If a foes isn't described as particularly slow/fast/exposed/armored, then you can assume anything below a 10 is a miss and anything 15 or higher is a hit.  In practice, this has lower cognitive load during play, and thus exactly the faster resolution effect you mention.  Yet it has nothing to do with die pools.

You'll often hear people say that die pools can be good, but they need to do something besides provide a pass/fail result.  That extra load / delayed resolution has to have some extra benefit to make up for what it loses.  Of course, for any given die pool system, that extra benefit won't appeal to all groups.  Thus some won't find that trade worthwhile, no matter how well it works in the abstract.

Dice pools are easier using a dice rolling app on your phone. 

As for the expected comment about how that's not really rolling dice, I'm not that big of stickler for such things.   Roll 5D6 and adding them up is just easier on my phone. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 26, 2024, 03:13:29 PMDice pools are easier using a dice rolling app on your phone. 

As for the expected comment about how that's not really rolling dice, I'm not that big of stickler for such things.   Roll 5D6 and adding them up is just easier on my phone. 

My issue is a principle that tabletop products should almost exclusively remain relegated to the table, free of electronic dependencies.

D6 isn't a dice-pool, though. You roll a number of dice equal to your skill-level, add them up, and compare to a target number. It's no different than rolling a d20 for attacking in D&D except you just have more than one die; it allows for ludicrous things to occur by hyper-competent heroes (target number 30 for flying a modified freighter through an asteroid field) while ALSO allowing a starting character to do the same thing, albeit at an almost insignificant probability. Unless you spend a Force point.

Not trying to derail the thread here, but D6 Star Wars emulates the movies in a way that is unparalleled in licensed RPGs, so not going to let that stand. That said, sure, I don't like dice-pools compared to just rolling.

Quote from: Brad on June 26, 2024, 03:31:08 PMD6 isn't a dice-pool, though. You roll a number of dice equal to your skill-level, add them up, and compare to a target number. It's no different than rolling a d20 for attacking in D&D except you just have more than one die; it allows for ludicrous things to occur by hyper-competent heroes (target number 30 for flying a modified freighter through an asteroid field) while ALSO allowing a starting character to do the same thing, albeit at an almost insignificant probability. Unless you spend a Force point.

Not trying to derail the thread here, but D6 Star Wars emulates the movies in a way that is unparalleled in licensed RPGs, so not going to let that stand. That said, sure, I don't like dice-pools compared to just rolling.

I'm constituting picking up a handful of dice, rolling them, then having to add them up a "dice pool." I'm not saying some of them aren't great systems; I'm saying I consider the lack of impact on the roll itself a significant detraction.

Implementation matters a great deal.

I think Ghostbusters did it right with the Ghost Die - you do have to take the time to add the results up like any other dice pool system, but if you roll the Ghost, you know immediately that your task has become more difficult (as the die then counts as a zero) and that something interesting will happen if your roll fails. You didn't just fail to hit the ghost with your proton pack, you blasted a very expensive aquarium and now there's a lot of water splashing around on your unlicensed nuclear accelerator.

I also think having an actual Ghost Die (or a replica) is fairly important to the whole thing. Yes, you can substitute a normal d6 of a different color, but you lose the instant recognition factor.

Even that's just "roll the pool, add them up, there is your result - meet or beat this number." As opposed to something like Godlike - "roll this grip of d10s, now group the matches. How many of the highest match did you get? A pair of nines? No, in THIS case the trio of fours wins. In this other case, you would have won."

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on June 26, 2024, 03:41:05 PM

Quote from: Brad on June 26, 2024, 03:31:08 PMD6 isn't a dice-pool, though. You roll a number of dice equal to your skill-level, add them up, and compare to a target number. It's no different than rolling a d20 for attacking in D&D except you just have more than one die; it allows for ludicrous things to occur by hyper-competent heroes (target number 30 for flying a modified freighter through an asteroid field) while ALSO allowing a starting character to do the same thing, albeit at an almost insignificant probability. Unless you spend a Force point.

Not trying to derail the thread here, but D6 Star Wars emulates the movies in a way that is unparalleled in licensed RPGs, so not going to let that stand. That said, sure, I don't like dice-pools compared to just rolling.

I'm constituting picking up a handful of dice, rolling them, then having to add them up a "dice pool." I'm not saying some of them aren't great systems; I'm saying I consider the lack of impact on the roll itself a significant detraction.

By that definition though, GURPS (3d6), HERO (3d6), and even Battletech/Mechwarrior (2d6) or any other system that isn't rolling a single die is a dice pool system.

That's, frankly, a definition so broad as to be meaningless; encompassing pretty much every non-D&D-derived system out there.

I would at least narrow your definition to exclude systems that use (mostly) fixed numbers of dice for resolution. HERO is always 3d6 for task resolution, Mechwarrior is always 2d6, Fate is always 4dF. I would never qualify those as "dice pool systems."

I prefer dice pool systems because they're less random. When you're good at something, you're more likely to succeed. You also see a cognitive and material difference on your character sheet because you're picking up more dice..

And there is a whole lotta thrill in rolling a bunch of dice.

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 26, 2024, 04:31:11 PM

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on June 26, 2024, 03:41:05 PM

Quote from: Brad on June 26, 2024, 03:31:08 PMD6 isn't a dice-pool, though. You roll a number of dice equal to your skill-level, add them up, and compare to a target number. It's no different than rolling a d20 for attacking in D&D except you just have more than one die; it allows for ludicrous things to occur by hyper-competent heroes (target number 30 for flying a modified freighter through an asteroid field) while ALSO allowing a starting character to do the same thing, albeit at an almost insignificant probability. Unless you spend a Force point.

Not trying to derail the thread here, but D6 Star Wars emulates the movies in a way that is unparalleled in licensed RPGs, so not going to let that stand. That said, sure, I don't like dice-pools compared to just rolling.

I'm constituting picking up a handful of dice, rolling them, then having to add them up a "dice pool." I'm not saying some of them aren't great systems; I'm saying I consider the lack of impact on the roll itself a significant detraction.

By that definition though, GURPS (3d6), HERO (3d6), and even Battletech/Mechwarrior (2d6) or any other system that isn't rolling a single die is a dice pool system.

That's, frankly, a definition so broad as to be meaningless; encompassing pretty much every non-D&D-derived system out there.

I would at least narrow your definition to exclude systems that use (mostly) fixed numbers of dice for resolution. HERO is always 3d6 for task resolution, Mechwarrior is always 2d6, Fate is always 4dF. I would never qualify those as "dice pool systems."

I usually think that if you count success and/or failure dice, it's a dice pool.  If you add numbers then it's not.

Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool edition is my favorite dice pool gimmick. 

In that game everything starts as a D4, going up to a max of a D12.  There are no D20's.  Your attribute is a die, your skill is a die, you special racial abilities add a die in the situation that it affects, as do your class abilities.

Roll them all, pick the best two, and that's your dice roll.

Example.  A dwarf soldier (bonus to hammers or axes) with the slayer (bonus to 2-handed melee) ability using a 2-handed hammer.  That a D8 for strength, a D6 for melee skill, a D4 for a soldier using a hammer, and s D4 for a Slayer using 2-handed melee weapon.  A quick roll is a 1 for strength, a 5 for skill, a 1 for soldier, and a 4 for a slayer.  A 9 result that would have been a 6 otherwise.