I'll buy a game sometimes with no intention of playing IT, but to incorporate some feature (sometimes mechanics, sometimes flavor) of it into a different game.

Quote from: Nakana on June 18, 2024, 03:18:07 PMI'll buy a game sometimes with no intention of playing IT, but to incorporate some feature (sometimes mechanics, sometimes flavor) of it into a different game.

I should say, I've done the same thing. Heck, I've bought books just from curiosity over what other people are talking about, with no intention even to incorporate parts.

But the collective effect is that companies can publish game books that aren't well playtested, knowing that there's a market of people who will buy them and not care. And I suspect that's bad for the hobby. The hobby should be focused on material that works well in play.

That said, I don't think that doing what's good for the hobby is all that important a duty. But if the question is what the hobby needs, I think Jaeger has a good point.

Quote from: orbitalair on June 17, 2024, 11:37:35 AMHex Paper,
https://incompetech.com/graphpaper/hexagonal/

A great site that I use to make all kinds of paper.

Quote from: LordBP on June 15, 2024, 12:17:43 PM

Quote from: BadApple on June 15, 2024, 04:46:09 AM11x17 hex paper.  Stamps for filling in those hexes would be nice too but I would love to just have a ream of 11x17 hex paper.

You might hit up Black Blade Publishing (https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/).

They had 11x17 hex and 17x22 hex when I ordered from them a while back.

Thanks guys

Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2024, 03:40:32 PM

Quote from: Nakana on June 18, 2024, 03:18:07 PMI'll buy a game sometimes with no intention of playing IT, but to incorporate some feature (sometimes mechanics, sometimes flavor) of it into a different game.

That said, I don't think that doing what's good for the hobby is all that important a duty. But if the question is what the hobby needs, I think Jaeger has a good point.

I see an inherent conflict there. If the hobby needs that, then all of us as "the hobby" have two options. Either we wade through the crap looking for the good stuff, just as we have to do with news, film, literature,  politics, etc., or we make peace with the fact that there will always be a ton of crap out there and we're gonna eat some of it. The price of freedom of expression is either being a judicious consumer or being content with a lot of crap. Choosing the latter and complaining about it is a "you made your bed..." situation.

I guess what I'm saying is that what the hobby needs is more judicious and better informed consumers, not "less crap." Similar outcome, but places the burden where I think it belongs - on us.

Quote from: Festus on June 19, 2024, 01:00:12 PMI guess what I'm saying is that what the hobby needs is more judicious and better informed consumers, not "less crap." Similar outcome, but places the burden where I think it belongs - on us.

The more judicious the consumer, the more crap that will be found... not less.

I agree with the first part, yet still wish there was less crap.

Part of the problem is marketplaces like dtrpg keep inventory in perpetuity and don't provide proper curating tools for the judicious consumer.

Quote from: Festus on June 19, 2024, 01:00:12 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2024, 03:40:32 PMThat said, I don't think that doing what's good for the hobby is all that important a duty. But if the question is what the hobby needs, I think Jaeger has a good point.

I guess what I'm saying is that what the hobby needs is more judicious and better informed consumers, not "less crap." Similar outcome, but places the burden where I think it belongs - on us.

I'd agree with that.

As a quibble, I don't like calling something "crap" if it is, say, a lovingly-written small-press game that never had outside playtesting, because there wasn't any budget for promotion.

There are plenty of good ideas out there, I think. We should want it better edited and playtested, and pay the premium for that.

Original settings, original bestiaries, original spells...

Quote from: Nakana on June 19, 2024, 01:44:14 PMThe more judicious the consumer, the more crap that will be found... not less.

Sure, but known crap isn't the problem. Just don't buy it. It's the stuff one might unwittingly waste time and money on that's a problem.

Quote from: Nakana on June 19, 2024, 01:44:14 PMPart of the problem is marketplaces like dtrpg ... don't provide proper curating tools for the judicious consumer.

100% agree on this. A Copper seller on DriveThru means it sold 50+ units. A cool thumbnail and supportive friends can get you there. And a such a product is more likely to only have reviews/ratings from said supportive friends. People brag about being a Gold seller, which only means 500+ units, when the DC20 KS already has ~15k backers. The bar on DriveThru is very low.

This may be part of why KS's like Shadowdark and DC20 do so well. 100+ page free samples, years long YouTube presence, high production values all contribute to consumer confidence that in turn drives sales. These elements are generally missing from DriveThru offerings.

Quote from: Festus on June 19, 2024, 02:46:46 PM

Quote from: Nakana on June 19, 2024, 01:44:14 PMThe more judicious the consumer, the more crap that will be found... not less.

Sure, but known crap isn't the problem. Just don't buy it. It's the stuff one might unwittingly waste time and money on that's a problem.

Quote from: Nakana on June 19, 2024, 01:44:14 PMPart of the problem is marketplaces like dtrpg ... don't provide proper curating tools for the judicious consumer.

100% agree on this. A Copper seller on DriveThru means it sold 50+ units. A cool thumbnail and supportive friends can get you there. And a such a product is more likely to only have reviews/ratings from said supportive friends. People brag about being a Gold seller, which only means 500+ units, when the DC20 KS already has ~15k backers. The bar on DriveThru is very low.

This may be part of why KS's like Shadowdark and DC20 do so well. 100+ page free samples, years long YouTube presence, high production values all contribute to consumer confidence that in turn drives sales. These elements are generally missing from DriveThru offerings.

Not to hate on Shadowdark and DC20, but I find there are several "indie" OSR games (or indie 5e alternatives) that are far better than either for me (in terms of cool new ideas or functionality).

For example, Knave (1e) and Black Hack (1e and 2e) do not have the same KS success but are great games.

Both Shadowdark and DC20 are the result of amazing marketing campaigns, and probably putting some decent money on advertising with youtubers - despite being good or bad games (and both look good IMO, just not my favorites).

I'll agree with the "high production values" and I definitely enjoy the "100+ page free samples".

OTOH if I were to choose my games for high production values and popularity I'd be still playing 5e (well, maybe except for the WotC shenanigans).

But, anyway, I'm biased since I'm a small publisher.

Who here actually runs games? Not just collects them - but goes out, explores, purchases new games and *runs them*.

The gaming economy is not based on whales that collect games but doesn't run them (though that happens inadvertently with the people I'm really talking about) - it depends on people that consume games and their accessories and use them and make other such people over time.

No amount of pontificating online about your favorite game is going to get people that *don't* run games to make your game(s) of choice "successful". This means we need more good GM's. Not casual GM's (but we'll take them too), but people that love the hobby for its own sake, and want to bring that joy to people that wanna play - who MAY or may not be consumers.

This is how it's always been. Since WotC D&D doesn't really cater to GMing and how to do it - *we* need to do it. That's why we should be talking about as many games as possible. Hell if Dragon Magazine didn't do that back in the day, I'd barely have noticed gems like Skyrealms of Jorune, Runequest, Talislanta, Palladium Fantasy, and dozens of other games I spent gold on over the years.

WE are the new "Dragon". And we need to appeal to people that want to learn how to GM, and create/support more content for them. Less tribalism outside of calling out just the bad shit, but we need to promote the good shit (which we do so-so here) and entice more people to get into the GM chair.

That's what we need in the post-WotC RPG world imo.

Quote from: tenbones on June 19, 2024, 03:34:29 PMWho here actually runs games? Not just collects them - but goes out, explores, purchases new games and *runs them*.

The gaming economy is not based on whales that collect games but doesn't run them (though that happens inadvertently with the people I'm really talking about) - it depends on people that consume games and their accessories and use them and make other such people over time.

No amount of pontificating online about your favorite game is going to get people that *don't* run games to make your game(s) of choice "successful". This means we need more good GM's. Not casual GM's (but we'll take them too), but people that love the hobby for its own sake, and want to bring that joy to people that wanna play - who MAY or may not be consumers.

This is how it's always been. Since WotC D&D doesn't really cater to GMing and how to do it - *we* need to do it. That's why we should be talking about as many games as possible. Hell if Dragon Magazine didn't do that back in the day, I'd barely have noticed gems like Skyrealms of Jorune, Runequest, Talislanta, Palladium Fantasy, and dozens of other games I spent gold on over the years.

WE are the new "Dragon". And we need to appeal to people that want to learn how to GM, and create/support more content for them. Less tribalism outside of calling out just the bad shit, but we need to promote the good shit (which we do so-so here) and entice more people to get into the GM chair.

That's what we need in the post-WotC RPG world imo.

Well said, sir!

Quote from: tenbones on June 19, 2024, 03:34:29 PMWho here actually runs games? Not just collects them - but goes out, explores, purchases new games and *runs them*.

The gaming economy is not based on whales that collect games but doesn't run them (though that happens inadvertently with the people I'm really talking about) - it depends on people that consume games and their accessories and use them and make other such people over time.

No amount of pontificating online about your favorite game is going to get people that *don't* run games to make your game(s) of choice "successful". This means we need more good GM's. Not casual GM's (but we'll take them too), but people that love the hobby for its own sake, and want to bring that joy to people that wanna play - who MAY or may not be consumers.

This is how it's always been. Since WotC D&D doesn't really cater to GMing and how to do it - *we* need to do it. That's why we should be talking about as many games as possible. Hell if Dragon Magazine didn't do that back in the day, I'd barely have noticed gems like Skyrealms of Jorune, Runequest, Talislanta, Palladium Fantasy, and dozens of other games I spent gold on over the years.

WE are the new "Dragon". And we need to appeal to people that want to learn how to GM, and create/support more content for them. Less tribalism outside of calling out just the bad shit, but we need to promote the good shit (which we do so-so here) and entice more people to get into the GM chair.

That's what we need in the post-WotC RPG world imo.

I get new games to try out with my table.  Fortunately, I have a great group of players that seem to enjoy the shake down trials of seeing if a system is feasible and fun.  Some of the games have stuck around, a few more have influenced house rules, but most are simply added to the pile of dust collectors.

Part of the reason I started doing reviews and posting here is that GMs can get an honest review that goes into enough depth to make a decision whether it's worth their time to take a closer look.  If there was anything else I could do to help GMs become GMS, get good games into the hands of those that will play them, and bring together more active tables, I'll do it.

I strongly encourage everyone to look at the games, modules, accessories, and equipment they actually use or have tried to use and post up reviews. Even if there are reviews up already, do your own.  Let everyone else know so that we can see an aggregate of honest gamers perspectives on the things we use and love and not just the sales pitch from the industry.

I believe that this will aid in the growth of the hobby in a positive way. 

Quote from: tenbones on June 19, 2024, 03:34:29 PMWho here actually runs games? Not just collects them - but goes out, explores, purchases new games and *runs them*.

The gaming economy is not based on whales that collect games but doesn't run them (though that happens inadvertently with the people I'm really talking about) - it depends on people that consume games and their accessories and use them and make other such people over time.

No amount of pontificating online about your favorite game is going to get people that *don't* run games to make your game(s) of choice "successful". This means we need more good GM's. Not casual GM's (but we'll take them too), but people that love the hobby for its own sake, and want to bring that joy to people that wanna play - who MAY or may not be consumers.

This is how it's always been. Since WotC D&D doesn't really cater to GMing and how to do it - *we* need to do it. That's why we should be talking about as many games as possible. Hell if Dragon Magazine didn't do that back in the day, I'd barely have noticed gems like Skyrealms of Jorune, Runequest, Talislanta, Palladium Fantasy, and dozens of other games I spent gold on over the years.

WE are the new "Dragon". And we need to appeal to people that want to learn how to GM, and create/support more content for them. Less tribalism outside of calling out just the bad shit, but we need to promote the good shit (which we do so-so here) and entice more people to get into the GM chair.

That's what we need in the post-WotC RPG world imo.

I imagine most of us run fewer games than we'd like to, owing to life getting in the way. I know I do. Here's a question though: Is buying a bunch of games and cycling through them better for the longevity of those games than picking a smaller number and keeping them up and playing for years on end?

Quote from: tenbones on June 19, 2024, 03:34:29 PMWho here actually runs games? Not just collects them - but goes out, explores, purchases new games and *runs them*.

The gaming economy is not based on whales that collect games but doesn't run them (though that happens inadvertently with the people I'm really talking about) - it depends on people that consume games and their accessories and use them and make other such people over time.

No amount of pontificating online about your favorite game is going to get people that *don't* run games to make your game(s) of choice "successful". This means we need more good GM's. Not casual GM's (but we'll take them too), but people that love the hobby for its own sake, and want to bring that joy to people that wanna play - who MAY or may not be consumers.

This is how it's always been. Since WotC D&D doesn't really cater to GMing and how to do it - *we* need to do it. That's why we should be talking about as many games as possible. Hell if Dragon Magazine didn't do that back in the day, I'd barely have noticed gems like Skyrealms of Jorune, Runequest, Talislanta, Palladium Fantasy, and dozens of other games I spent gold on over the years.

WE are the new "Dragon". And we need to appeal to people that want to learn how to GM, and create/support more content for them. Less tribalism outside of calling out just the bad shit, but we need to promote the good shit (which we do so-so here) and entice more people to get into the GM chair.

That's what we need in the post-WotC RPG world imo.

You know, we may have some different tastes in games (we both love Faserip and d6 WEG SW, but I'm not as big a fan of Savage Worlds), but every time you post I'm struck by what a righteous dude you are.  Our hobby would be a much better place if more gamers and DMs had your outlook and philosophy.  Keep being awesome, tenbones!

Quote from: ForgottenF on June 19, 2024, 08:12:28 PMI imagine most of us run fewer games than we'd like to, owing to life getting in the way. I know I do. Here's a question though: Is buying a bunch of games and cycling through them better for the longevity of those games than picking a smaller number and keeping them up and playing for years on end?

Both.  It might benefit any particular game to be played and supported long term, but the constant experimentation and development of new games is also an important part of a thriving hobby.  So I think we need both.