How does combat play out in Genesys? Can players do cool shit? Hopefully it's more satisfying than 5e combat...

Quote from: Monero on June 17, 2024, 12:54:45 PMHow does combat play out in Genesys? Can players do cool shit? Hopefully it's more satisfying than 5e combat...

Yes, but...

The "but" being that it takes effort to suss out how the die mechanics truly work. If you're up for it and approach it with an open mind, it can be fun so long as everyone is ready to play it. If you have resistant players at the table that balk at the mechanics, you might need to uninvite them from the game, because it does take player buy-in (but, then, so do all games).

I have played and run a shit-ton of Edge of the Empire/Age of Rebellion. I've probably posted more on the system than anyone on this forum. I'll give a brief run-down (from memory)

1) I was intensely skeptical of this system for all the obvious reasons a) the Dice b) I love d6 Star Wars, so why do I need this?

Eventually I watched a bunch of videos from Runeslinger, and it convinced me that the system *isn't* as narrative bullshit as people pretend it to be (He's right).

So the contention is Genesys is PbtA of a different stripe/i.e. narrative bullshit. It is nothing like PbtA if the assertion is that there are degrees of success or that the PC's can potentially "change the narrative" of a scene.

PbtA has "narrative change mechanics" as part of its normal gameplay. Genesys does not. It's an OPTION. Everything about the system uses hard values which the GM interprets in terms of degree of success.

1) You're supposed to roll only when it matters.
2) You do Stat d8's + Skill in a dicepool. The *type* of dice you use is dependent on your skill rank (i.e. you upgrade your d8's to d12's for every Skill rank. Difficulty dice (d8's) are added to the pool. These are upgraded only in resisted checks, or if there are extenuating circumstances. These are *normal* die-pool mechanics. Failures cancel out successes. Any successes left over from the roll indicate success (and the degree of success).
3) Threat/Advantage - these are merely the things GM's and players can leverage for mechanical benefits. They do *not* cancel one another out. If a player has any Advantages they can a) Activate features on their gear/weapons, use them to help other members of their group, etc. Likewise if the player has Threat the *GM* can cause bad shit to happen - like your magazine is emptied on your attack, or reinforcements arrive, a stray shot hits a pipe and now fills the area with smoke, etc.
4) Booster/Setback dice - These are EASY. They're simply anything that enhances the situation environmentally the players or GM can think of that are relevant to the scene. A player might be trying to negotiate a slope, and a heavy wind kicks up, the GM might toss in a Setback die into the players Athletics check to negotiate the berm. Likewise the player might have survival gear which grants him a Booster die on all such checks. BOTH dice go into the pool.

Now you do have things like "Destiny Points" (not sure what they're called in Genesys) to represent the Force which *can* be used to do stupid narrative shit if the GM wants to, OR they can be used to give you a mechanical benefit (adds a d8 to your pool, or upgrade a d8 in the pool to a d12). THAT'S IT.

If the discussion is whether or not the Genesys system is Narrative Asshattery - it's not. But you can certainly make it that way in the same way you could do it to any system. Does it give you the option to do so? Sure. But it is entirely up to the GM. If the idea that it's Narrative Trash is important for labeling reasons - then there are a lot of other systems that also will fall into this category - which means any system with a Luck system (Savage Worlds, CP2020, Marvel Superheroes, DC Heroes, etc. etc.)

The PROBLEMS with the Genesys system which I've heard they updated poorly is with their "crafting" and "gear". It's garbage and greatly affected our games because we had "gear monkey" type PC's that had to struggle to make anything good.

There are other smaller issues, but it's very playable. I personally never understood the "I can't read the dice" argument, since it's just counting up symbols on the dice. Which is small addition. There is nothing particularly abstract about it - even if you don't like coming up with fun interesting things for Threat/Advantage, because you can literally convert Threat/Advantage directly into mechanical penalties/bonuses if you're not up to the task. It's trivial and completely non-narrativist.

I should add - I own *everything* from their Star Wars lines (Edge/Age/Force) - and they are extremely well produced. HOWEVER...

With the advent of SWADE, and its Companion series - I'll likely never run Star Wars using this system again. Genesys as a "universal system" is *nowhere* in the ballpark of ease of use compared to Savage Worlds. It's not even close. That said - you could run D&D style gaming well into the "sweet spot" of D&D play (up to 10th level or so) without much effort.

Would I recommend it? Honestly, no. Unless you're simply looking for a novel dice-pool game. But even then, I'd probably recommend d6.

Quote from: yosemitemike on June 16, 2024, 04:50:26 AMI have run and played a few different flavors of it.  It works okay.  Interpreting the dice pools can be a bit of a pain.  In a lot of cases, it's unneeded complexity.  I just need to know whether the character succeeds or not.  There are a lot of options for how to spend advantage that are spread out all over the place which can give some players analysis paralysis.  The more material you are using, the worse this issue gets. 

It kind of sounds like this issue could be tweaked by having different "levels" of dice resolution. Climbing a wall/bribing a guard and want a simple low resolution skill check? Ignore/downplay advantage/threat. Want to "zoom in" more on a particular skill roll(dramatic combat), then those pips can come more into play and focus.

Fate Core handled this well in that in that how you roll really comes down to how much "resolution" you want in that scene. A sniper shot might be a conflict(combat), simple check, or contested check depending on how much time/effort you want to spend on the PC shooting that NPC.

Quote from: tenbones on June 18, 2024, 10:12:09 AM3) Threat/Advantage - these are merely the things GM's and players can leverage for mechanical benefits. They do *not* cancel one another out.

This is incorrect. Threat/Advantage *do* cancel one another. Because of this, it is impossible for a single roll to result in both Threat and Advantage. However, there are the more rare (and more powerful) Despair/Triumph results that do *not* cancel one another. It is possible for a single roll to produce both Despiar and Triumph.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 18, 2024, 11:21:28 AM

Quote from: tenbones on June 18, 2024, 10:12:09 AM3) Threat/Advantage - these are merely the things GM's and players can leverage for mechanical benefits. They do *not* cancel one another out.

This is incorrect. Threat/Advantage *do* cancel one another. Because of this, it is impossible for a single roll to result in both Threat and Advantage. However, there are the more rare (and more powerful) Despair/Triumph results that do *not* cancel one another. It is possible for a single roll to produce both Despiar and Triumph.

My bad. Like I said - from memory. Still doesn't mean the system is narrative trash.

Quote from: Dracones on June 18, 2024, 10:45:04 AMIt kind of sounds like this issue could be tweaked by having different "levels" of dice resolution. Climbing a wall/bribing a guard and want a simple low resolution skill check? Ignore/downplay advantage/threat. Want to "zoom in" more on a particular skill roll(dramatic combat), then those pips can come more into play and focus.

Depends on if it "matters". If it's a simple check, and there is no reason a PC with normal ability couldn't scale the wall, you might just handwave it. But what if you know there are guards in the area that the PC is unaware of? Or the PC has a wound or whatever, where the wall might be not so simple.

The cool thing about the system is that you can set the difficulty specific to the task at hand. Case in point - a normal difficulty is two-difficulty dice. But if you think its relevant, there might be mitigating factors like the PC has to time it due to a panning camera - so a Setback die. Or whatever. It's not that scaling the wall itself got harder, (if that were the case you'd raise the Difficulty die to 3) but the circumstances themselves cause potential problems. Hence the Setback die.

Likewise the player (or GM) can rationalize their own potential Booster dice for making the circumstances easier.

I don't distinguish how this is any different from other systems where you're factoring in bonuses/penalties into a die-roll. It's just a little more granular and allows for negotiation. /shrug.

Quote from: tenbones on June 18, 2024, 10:12:09 AMThere are other smaller issues, but it's very playable. I personally never understood the "I can't read the dice" argument, since it's just counting up symbols on the dice. Which is small addition. There is nothing particularly abstract about it - even if you don't like coming up with fun interesting things for Threat/Advantage, because you can literally convert Threat/Advantage directly into mechanical penalties/bonuses if you're not up to the task. It's trivial and completely non-narrativist.

Well, with "standard" dice, like WEG D6 or a D20 system you roll a number. Big number better than small number. Easy peasy.
In Genesys, there are six(?) symbols spread out among six different dice types. Here-



Each dice type (color) has a different matching dice (good dice, bad dice) and each set of results has a different matching dice result (good result, bad result). That's a lot of categories of dice and results to consider, versus even the D6 system.

I'm glad you chimed in since you have run the system. It gives me hope that if I ever get a chance to run TI, I can run the system as pass/fail and not "interpret dice".

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 18, 2024, 04:34:20 PMEach dice type (color) has a different matching dice (good dice, bad dice) and each set of results has a different matching dice result (good result, bad result). That's a lot of categories of dice and results to consider, versus even the D6 system.

It gives you two axes success--failure and advantage--threat. Results of triumph and despair can sprinkle in some extra good and bad. It's not complicated and can actually allow a lot of effects (equipment-based, environment-based, ability/talent-based to have possible impacts rather than guaranteed ones). It plays much better than it reads, so I'd suggest giving it a try for a few sessions.

As long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

A home brew rule I use in my D&D game is two dice, a d20 and a d8.  The d20 is used in the normal fashion and the d8 is to adjudicate secondary events.  I don't always use the d8 but I always have my players call it out.

Here's a simple example on how I use the D8:  A rogue is picking a lock in an alley off a busy street.  His primary effort is to open the lock and that is decided by the d20 but whether a passer-by happens to catch him doing it is determined by the d8. Almost always, the meaning and consequences of the d8 roll are hidden from the players.  This way the Rogue won't find out he's been spotted right away but rather four hours later when confronted by the local sheriff when he's relaxing at the tavern and thinking he got away Scott free. 

Quote from: BadApple on June 20, 2024, 07:07:13 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 20, 2024, 02:24:21 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 19, 2024, 08:50:29 PMAs long as you can grock the symbols its not horrible. Its just needlessly complicated by it.

I suspect players familliar with the FATE system and its funky dice will grasp this slightly easier.

You say needlessly complicated, but how would you build a system that produces two axes of results with Yes/But and No/And weighted more heavily than Yes/And and No/But (because if you get a lot of successes, you probably don't have many Advantages, likewise the reverse and carry this over to not being likely to get a lot of both negative outcomes)?

If you say that you don't see the need for a system to generate such outcomes, then you don't appreciate the appeal of Genesys to its fans.

A home brew rule I use in my D&D game is two dice, a d20 and a d8.  The d20 is used in the normal fashion and the d8 is to adjudicate secondary events.  I don't always use the d8 but I always have my players call it out.

Here's a simple example on how I use the D8:  A rogue is picking a lock in an alley off a busy street.  His primary effort is to open the lock and that is decided by the d20 but whether a passer-by happens to catch him doing it is determined by the d8. Almost always, the meaning and consequences of the d8 roll are hidden from the players.  This way the Rogue won't find out he's been spotted right away but rather four hours later when confronted by the local sheriff when he's relaxing at the tavern and thinking he got away Scott free. 

Is that d8 outcome totally random, or can the PC's choices/gear/talents impact it in some way? Also, if the outcome is hidden, how will the player know how to impact it?

As someone who GMed Genesys for years, it really takes the right group of players with strong abstract thinking skills to work. It's also a bit restrictive for a GM, trying to satisfy the conditions imposed by the dice whether the situation really warrants it or not.