Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 17, 2024, 07:55:54 PMThen why bring them up? We know they're satire. You know they're satire. That's not the topic being discussed.

Why not address Black Aragorn in MTG, or the "Diversity Initative" in D&D?

The topic, as I understood it, is the difference between being political and being propaganda. Political satire is still political - it's probably the most common form of political commentary in games and media. In recent media, I think of Don't Look Up (2021) or Barbie (2023).

Neither of what you've suggested is an RPG product in itself. The Polygon article does mention some D&D products, like Eberron: Rising from the Last War. I have a copy of the Eberron book, and I've been going through it recently since I've been planning a fantasy horror game set in Eberron. Would you say that the book is itself propaganda? I don't see that.

It seems to me that the article is trying to claim being progressive about marginal material. Non-evil orcs have been a thing since Shadowrun (1989) or Sovereign Stone (1999). I never got into Eberron as a 3E setting (since I didn't play 3E), but I don't get the impression they changed much.

The one place I was annoyed to see propaganda was, of all places, "Tales from the Loop".  It is not a political game in most any sense.  Yet, they took the time and effort to publish the known lie in their section on 80s lore that Reagan negotiated with Iran to wait until his inauguration day to release the Carter-era hostages.  This is a historic lie started by democrats in congress and disproved way back in the 90s.  But it was done so subtly and nonchalantly, among real 80s cultural history, that it reads like it's just a basic fact.  I mean, how many minds are they going to trick with this?  Enough to make any difference?  Little swipes like that in what appears to be apolitical games are just turn-offs.

Quote from: Fheredin on June 17, 2024, 10:08:37 AMI would actually argue there is a limit to how good any given content can be when it doesn't have any philosophical or political content. Humanity strives for truth, so works which do not seek to satisfy that striving simply do not satisfy.

Core O, BX, A and 2e D&D with no settings all lacked any political agenda and aside from maybe alignment, had no philisophical content either.

That all developed in the settings. If ever.

Quote from: jhkim on June 17, 2024, 08:48:03 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 17, 2024, 07:55:54 PMThen why bring them up? We know they're satire. You know they're satire. That's not the topic being discussed.

Why not address Black Aragorn in MTG, or the "Diversity Initative" in D&D?

The topic, as I understood it, is the difference between being political and being propaganda. Political satire is still political - it's probably the most common form of political commentary in games and media. In recent media, I think of Don't Look Up (2021) or Barbie (2023).

Neither of what you've suggested is an RPG product in itself. The Polygon article does mention some D&D products, like Eberron: Rising from the Last War. I have a copy of the Eberron book, and I've been going through it recently since I've been planning a fantasy horror game set in Eberron. Would you say that the book is itself propaganda? I don't see that.

I have not read the product you point out. Considering your posting style over the past years, and that I do not have first hand experience with the book, I'll take your commentary with a huge grain of salt.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 18, 2024, 12:08:39 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 17, 2024, 08:48:03 PMThe topic, as I understood it, is the difference between being political and being propaganda. Political satire is still political - it's probably the most common form of political commentary in games and media. In recent media, I think of Don't Look Up (2021) or Barbie (2023).

Neither of what you've suggested is an RPG product in itself. The Polygon article does mention some D&D products, like Eberron: Rising from the Last War. I have a copy of the Eberron book, and I've been going through it recently since I've been planning a fantasy horror game set in Eberron. Would you say that the book is itself propaganda? I don't see that.

I have not read the product you point out. Considering your posting style over the past years, and that I do not have first hand experience with the book, I'll take your commentary with a huge grain of salt.

That's fair. Are there specific RPG products that you think are propaganda, and maybe we both are familiar with at least one of them, and can compare impressions?

Most of the propaganda in D&D and Pathfinder is just silly and basically turns the settings into fantasy versions of 21st century Seattle. The people at WotC, Paizo and many other game companies are completely unable to think outside the box or go outside of their own comfort zones. I greatly prefer games where the players have to adopt completely different behaviors and mindsets in order to survive, and where the interests of one's family, church, state or organization are more important than any personal gains. 

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 17, 2024, 04:26:20 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on June 17, 2024, 03:11:54 PMSince the default campaign is Free Traders, progressives tend to claim that the game is innately capitalist and therefore conservative.

This is completely nonsensical. Firstly, capitalism is a spectrum of regulations and not a coherent ideology. There are many people who love capitalism but hate corporations and call modern capitalism "crony capitalism." Secondly, conservatism (and for that matter progressivism) isn't a fixed ideology but arbitrarily defined based on time and space. An American conservative and a Japanese conservative aren't gonna share the same values when it comes to social safety nets and abortion, for example.

That may be so, but you need to convince the propagandists that this propaganda is wrong - not me because I already know.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 17, 2024, 07:55:54 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 17, 2024, 07:13:00 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 17, 2024, 11:05:30 AMHaving druids coming into towns and giving sex change to children in a village that looks like a Target commercial (black halfling dad, white half orc mom, asian dwarf son and hispanic lizadman daughter) with no explanation how all these disparate species are living together let alone how a halfling could mate to an orc and give a lizardman, but something like this if I told you twitter was pushing, could you say definitively that never happened, you can't.  That's propaganda.

Its why I think we should move away from politics and call it propaganda when that type of real world leftoigology is put into gaming.

That sounds like a hypothetical example. I feel like it helps to talk about real cases.

I'm not sure what I'd call propaganda in RPGs, but I can think of politics.

What springs to mind for me is, say, _Paranoia_ (1984). It's explicitly a humorous satire of Cold-War-era U.S. nationalism. The Computer purports to hunt down "commie mutant traitors" who are the enemy but in reality, it is the insane totalitarian ruler. Along similar lines, _Macho Women With Guns_ (1988) is a humorous satire of male chauvinism, with post-apocalyptic monsters like "Drunken frat boys" and "Chauvinist swine" along with "Lawyers" and "TV Evangelists".

I think they're explicitly real-world political satire, but I wouldn't call them propaganda.

Then why bring them up? We know they're satire. You know they're satire. That's not the topic being discussed.

Why not address Black Aragorn in MTG, or the "Diversity Initative" in D&D?

Because jhkim is a propagandist.

Quote from: jhkim on June 17, 2024, 08:48:03 PMThe topic, as I understood it, is the difference between being political and being propaganda. Political satire is still political - it's probably the most common form of political commentary in games and media. In recent media, I think of Don't Look Up (2021) or Barbie (2023).

Satire can still be propaganda, particularly if it's dishonest. Most left wing satire is dishonest, usually because it satirizes a society which no longer exists and often never did. Just for a very small and easily identifiable example: that Barbie movie portrays the Mattel board of directors as entirely male, when it's actually a 50/50 split between men and women. It also makes a fuss about representation on the Supreme Court, even though the current US Supreme Court is also nearly an even split (5/4 male to female) and there have been women on the court for over 30 years. The point being that the film is satirizing a patriarchy which just doesn't exist. 

Perpetuating the myth that men universally run the corporate and legal systems, and women are universally oppressed by them, is profoundly dishonest and I would absolutely call it propaganda.

Quote from: ForgottenF on June 18, 2024, 08:39:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 17, 2024, 08:48:03 PMThe topic, as I understood it, is the difference between being political and being propaganda. Political satire is still political - it's probably the most common form of political commentary in games and media. In recent media, I think of Don't Look Up (2021) or Barbie (2023).

Satire can still be propaganda, particularly if it's dishonest. Most left wing satire is dishonest, usually because it satirizes a society which no longer exists and often never did. Just for a very small and easily identifiable example: that Barbie movie portrays ... satirizing a patriarchy which just doesn't exist. 

Perpetuating the myth that men universally run the corporate and legal systems, and women are universally oppressed by them, is profoundly dishonest and I would absolutely call it propaganda.

Ironically, the Barbie movie itself disproves the concept about the existence of the patriarchy.  When Ken became enamored at the patriarchy, he lived like there was one, but the real world (as opposed to the Barbie world) contradicted him at every turn.  Like when he asked the woman doctor to see a doctor, because a woman couldn't possibly be a doctor, and she said, "I am a doctor".

Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2024, 12:29:45 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 18, 2024, 12:08:39 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 17, 2024, 08:48:03 PMThe topic, as I understood it, is the difference between being political and being propaganda. Political satire is still political - it's probably the most common form of political commentary in games and media. In recent media, I think of Don't Look Up (2021) or Barbie (2023).

Neither of what you've suggested is an RPG product in itself. The Polygon article does mention some D&D products, like Eberron: Rising from the Last War. I have a copy of the Eberron book, and I've been going through it recently since I've been planning a fantasy horror game set in Eberron. Would you say that the book is itself propaganda? I don't see that.

I have not read the product you point out. Considering your posting style over the past years, and that I do not have first hand experience with the book, I'll take your commentary with a huge grain of salt.

That's fair. Are there specific RPG products that you think are propaganda, and maybe we both are familiar with at least one of them, and can compare impressions?

Considering I avoid WOTC partly* due to such propoganda they have announced is an important part of their writing, probably not.

*The other reasons is that I don't care for edition churn when I already have so many RPGs to play. Including older editions of D&D.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on June 18, 2024, 04:52:22 PMIronically, the Barbie movie itself disproves the concept about the existence of the patriarchy.  When Ken became enamored at the patriarchy, he lived like there was one, but the real world (as opposed to the Barbie world) contradicted him at every turn.  Like when he asked the woman doctor to see a doctor, because a woman couldn't possibly be a doctor, and she said, "I am a doctor".

I should probably watch Barbie at some point. It sounds like they fell into the funky grey area where they try to exercise a narrative, but can't help that the real world doesn't match up to their narrative, and so The Message gets muddled and kinda amusing.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on June 17, 2024, 10:19:42 PMThe one place I was annoyed to see propaganda was, of all places, "Tales from the Loop".  It is not a political game in most any sense.  Yet, they took the time and effort to publish the known lie in their section on 80s lore that Reagan negotiated with Iran to wait until his inauguration day to release the Carter-era hostages.  This is a historic lie started by democrats in congress and disproved way back in the 90s.  But it was done so subtly and nonchalantly, among real 80s cultural history, that it reads like it's just a basic fact.  I mean, how many minds are they going to trick with this?  Enough to make any difference?  Little swipes like that in what appears to be apolitical games are just turn-offs.

This one really bothered me as well.

Quote from: FingerRod on June 18, 2024, 09:13:41 PM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on June 17, 2024, 10:19:42 PMThe one place I was annoyed to see propaganda was, of all places, "Tales from the Loop".  It is not a political game in most any sense.  Yet, they took the time and effort to publish the known lie in their section on 80s lore that Reagan negotiated with Iran to wait until his inauguration day to release the Carter-era hostages.  This is a historic lie started by democrats in congress and disproved way back in the 90s.  But it was done so subtly and nonchalantly, among real 80s cultural history, that it reads like it's just a basic fact.  I mean, how many minds are they going to trick with this?  Enough to make any difference?  Little swipes like that in what appears to be apolitical games are just turn-offs.

This one really bothered me as well.

You guys do know that this is by a Swedish company, right? I'd say more likely a cock-up than a conspiracy - or political act.  The vanilla version of this seems to be:
  Hanlon's razor is the adage that you should "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

When I've seen dumb stuff in American source books about London, England or Europe, I attribute to ignorance or poor research not political acts. But also - have to say- any post-internet sourcebook with real world facts has fewer excuses for being wrong but also is less needed. 

Quote from: Cathode Ray on June 17, 2024, 10:19:42 PM"Tales from the Loop" ... took the time and effort to publish the known lie in their section on 80s lore that Reagan negotiated with Iran to wait until his inauguration day to release the Carter-era hostages.  This is a historic lie started by democrats in congress and disproved way back in the 90s.  But it was done so subtly and nonchalantly, among real 80s cultural history, that it reads like it's just a basic fact.

And exploiting the great loophole of fantasy games and literature, if anyone makes enough of a big deal about this the creators always have the option to say, "Well, no, but so what? Maybe in our game's history that's what did happen. It's just a game, why freak out about it?"

Jim Treacher called this the "Clown Nose On Clown Nose Off" effect, when criticizing Jon Stewart back in 2010; it's a way to immunize your messages against counterargument or criticism by saying they're only a joke or a fantasy when challenged, while fully expecting (and intending) that those messages be believed and taken seriously by those already inclined to agree.