As stated, I use race mainly because of its ubiquity in the field and because I can give it a clear in-game meaning (i.e. option available to PCs) that is unlikely to come up anywhere else in the setting (post-post-apocalyptic science fantasy means human populations are as mixed as today and compared to the other sapients out there even dwarves count as humans).

The related reason is just that the PC options are related more by capacity for sapience and free will than anything biological. Humans, genetically engineered Beastmen, AIs glitched into the physical world by the global nanocloud, nature spirits banished into mortal forms, robots, mutants, and human/fallen nature spirit half-breeds all count.

Others like demons (fallen nature spirits), unfallen nature spirits, undead, non-sapient robots, beasts, etc. aren't "races" because they fail one or both of the sapience and free will tests (and a few fail because they lack corporeal forms... i.e. indestructible incorruptible immortal spirit who wears physical forms the way humans wear hats isn't a good PC option).

So when robots, exiled spirits, and humans are all PC options... even something as broad as species isn't actually broad enough to cover all the bases.

I considered "kind" for a while too, but "kind" popped up so often in general descriptions and fluff text that it would have led to confusion barring something pretentious like always capitalizing or White Wolf renaming (i.e. Kynd because WW loves replacing I's with Y's).

So race for PCs was just the best fit I could find (and creature covers everything else... it covers PCs too technically but "choose creature type" vs. "choose race" is so bad I might as well use Kynd.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on June 07, 2024, 09:22:06 PMI wouldn't mind the change so much if I didn't know the underlying rationality of why they are doing it, more or less new-speak type tactics.

I am 100% with you on that. Changing the name of what you call it has no true effect. It is the 'why' behind the change that is worrisome. Rgr on it being a new-speak item.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 10:50:58 PMSo, serious question here.  I'm writing up the rules right now for a human-only scifi game (no intelligent xenos have ever been discovered... yet).  Some humans have adapted to their world (some naturally, some via bioengineering), so they have different groupings based on their homeworld or bioengineered design (some adapted to high-G worlds, etc.).  What should I call it?  "Race" doesn't really fit, nor does "ancestry" or "species."  Things like "lineage" imply that their parents were like that (which is not always the case).  I'm actually stumped here, because I'm not pandering, but "race" really doesn't work.  Any suggestions are welcome!

I know Traveller 2300 has something like that. I can't remember what they call it.

I have been kicking around an idea for a HB setting that is very Traveller 2300/Expanse (without the blue goo from Traveller) styled. With importance on home planet gravity etc. So, if I go further, I'd have to be asking that myself

There have been some great options here so far.

I like SM's Strain, or adding to GB's comment - Sapien-Strain (if/when other species are encountered or genetic manipulation results in 'enlightened animals), but Mish's Adapt (for adaptation) is a good one too!

Origin?

I'm running into similar terminology issues with my urban fantasy multiverse concept. I'm using a toolkit approach to archetypal magical beings, similar to All Flesh Must Be Eaten or GURPS Whatever.

If you want to use different strains in the same game, then you need to have some kind of universal guidelines for sorting. So something like a vampire or lycanthrope can be quantified according to multiple criteria, such as "how did they become what they are?" "what powers and curses do they have?" "what are the limitations?" etc.

Even if you're using the same rules for a magical race, anything that isn't strictly a matter of rules is open to interpretation. For example, the reproductive process or transmission method of your vampires or lycanthropes is the sort of thing that doesn't necessarily need additional rules. Was your vampire or lycanthrope cursed, born or bitten? Do those origins need distinct rules or can they be summarized in less than a sentence?

Quote from: SHARK on June 07, 2024, 08:53:57 PMGreetings!

Hello, SHARK! Long time no see! I haven't been foruming much in years. Anyhoo...

Quote from: SHARKYeah, I can see companies changing use of the term "Race" and swapping that for "Ancestry" simply because it is very popular right now--probably with most companies. Embracing such editorial policy does not necessarily mean that the company is entirely corrupted with Commie Woke scum--but it is definitely a sign to take a closer look, in my view. I think many companies specifically embrace such an editorial policy simply to pursue broader profitability and avoid any kind of negative publicity.

Companies are run by people, and people have political opinions. Most larger corporations in particular are run by a caste of Cloud People who live in a bubble completely disconnected with the regular lives of regular Dirt People, and their beliefs about Dirt People are hostile, condescending, and cult-like in their ability to completely ignore reality no matter how hard it's hitting them in the face. Not only that, the people running them from the C suite are toxic narcissists who will gladly throw their entire corporation under the bus if it allows them to virtue-signal in such a way that they can fail upward, give themselves a big bonus, and move on to devour some other poor corporation like a locust.

It may be true during the Reagan years that corporations cared about profit--personally I doubt it, but I admit I wasn't paying that much attention to what was going on in the corporate world that long ago--but it certainly isn't true now. You can't tell me that the executives at WotC, Bob Iger (and Kevin Feige, Kathleen Kennedy, etc.), whoever the morons are that run Anheiser-Busch, etc, (and that's just a tiny sampling) care about profit.

Smaller corporations aren't run by c suite automatons, but they are often run by people in just as ridiculous a bubble as the Cloud People bubble who's whole identity is based around their hatred of normal Dirt People America--plus many of them are obviously strivers who emulate the Cloud People in the hopes that they can be mistaken for one of them someday.

Quote from: Hobo on June 11, 2024, 11:10:53 PM

Quote from: SHARK on June 07, 2024, 08:53:57 PMGreetings!

Hello, SHARK! Long time no see! I haven't been foruming much in years. Anyhoo...

Quote from: SHARKYeah, I can see companies changing use of the term "Race" and swapping that for "Ancestry" simply because it is very popular right now--probably with most companies. Embracing such editorial policy does not necessarily mean that the company is entirely corrupted with Commie Woke scum--but it is definitely a sign to take a closer look, in my view. I think many companies specifically embrace such an editorial policy simply to pursue broader profitability and avoid any kind of negative publicity.

Companies are run by people, and people have political opinions. Most larger corporations in particular are run by a caste of Cloud People who live in a bubble completely disconnected with the regular lives of regular Dirt People, and their beliefs about Dirt People are hostile, condescending, and cult-like in their ability to completely ignore reality no matter how hard it's hitting them in the face. Not only that, the people running them from the C suite are toxic narcissists who will gladly throw their entire corporation under the bus if it allows them to virtue-signal in such a way that they can fail upward, give themselves a big bonus, and move on to devour some other poor corporation like a locust.

It may be true during the Reagan years that corporations cared about profit--personally I doubt it, but I admit I wasn't paying that much attention to what was going on in the corporate world that long ago--but it certainly isn't true now. You can't tell me that the executives at WotC, Bob Iger (and Kevin Feige, Kathleen Kennedy, etc.), whoever the morons are that run Anheiser-Busch, etc, (and that's just a tiny sampling) care about profit.

Smaller corporations aren't run by c suite automatons, but they are often run by people in just as ridiculous a bubble as the Cloud People bubble who's whole identity is based around their hatred of normal Dirt People America--plus many of them are obviously strivers who emulate the Cloud People in the hopes that they can be mistaken for one of them someday.

Greetings!

Hobo! My old friend! Wow! Yes, it has been far too long! So good to see you here!

And yes, companies are run by Cloud People. *Laughing* Yeah, man, it's all about Marxism now. The big grab for power, riding on race baiting, rainbow degeneracy, feminism, and Marxism. All straight out of Saul Alinsky's book, "Rules For Radicals". The Soviet defector, a KGB official and diplomat, who escaped from Communism, laid out in detail over 40 years ago the Communist's plans for overthrowing America and the West. Everything he said has come true, right down to every method, plan, and program. All designed to sow division, destroy the family, our economy, and corrupt the culture entirely. We have people right now celebrating Communism, hate Capitalism, and are on their knees for a new, all-powerful Commie Mommy State. Just like companies lining up, and flexing, all designed to spread the message, and corrupt the society to the abyss of collapse and Chaos. Profits be damned. This is all about the total corruption of American society--and the ultimate power grab for tyranny once the firestorm really gets going, and the cesspools are flooding the society.

So good to see you here, Hobo!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The reason I use the word "race" in ACKS is because it's the only word in English that can simultaneously mean everything I might need it to mean -- ancestry, breed, ethnicity, and species -- without in any way implying or negating the possibility of shared genetic reproductive capacity and without suggesting modern biological science. Any other word I could choose would cause either an over-fit or under-fit in meaning.

Merriam Webster definitions of Race:
1) any one of the groups that humans are often divided into based on physical traits regarded as common among people of shared ancestry - "race relations between blacks and whites..."

2) a group of people sharing a common cultural, geographical, linguistic, or religious origin or background - "the Norwegian and the Dane were a different race from the Saxon" (Henry Adams)

3) a group of living things considered as a category - "the whole race of yellow flowers" (Henry David Thoreau) or "the race of man" (Bronte)

4) a group within a species that is distinguishable (as morphologically, genetically, or behaviorally) from others of the same species - "This quail species is diverse and can be classified into 21 recognized geographic races in North America..."

The ambiguity of race, across its four definitions, is its virtue. For instance, Just because the elven race can breed with the human race doesn't mean that the wookie race can breed with the ewok race. But if you say "can the wookie species breed with the ewok species" the implied answer is "no they can't" and if you say "can persons of wookie ancestry breed with persons of ewok ancestry" the implied answer is "yes". Race doesn't imply an answer, which enables us as designers to have lots of different "things" be races mechanically in the game.
 
Edain is a race of humans under definition 1, 2 and 4.
Dunlending or Norwegian is a race of humans under definition 2 and possibly 4.

Dwarf is a race of creatures under definition 3.
Duergar is a race of dwarves under definition 4.

Elf is a race of creatures under definition 3. 
Noldor is a race of elves under definition 4. 

Corellian is a race of human under definition 2. 
Wookie is a race of hairy ship mechanics under definition 3.
Ewok is a race of short warrior-hunters under definition 3. 

In my own game ACKS, the mechanical concept of Race includes Dwarves and Elves, which are different species from humans and cannot always fertile interbreed; Zaharans, which are the same species as humans but cursed by dark magic; Nobirans, which are the same species as humans but uplifted by virtue of a heroic soul; Katripol, which are a highly different ethnicity from the other groups in the game world with a distinct culture that provides mechanical advantages; Nosferatu, which are members of other races turned into vampires; and on and on. Mechanically, though, they're all just "clusters of classes with special powers"; and no one other word would work.

If there were a better word, I'd happily use it, but there isn't. This isn't like "dick" vs "penis" where they mean the same thing but one is polite and the other isn't. One word means the things I need, and the others don't.

All of the words that replace race aren't as good. Species has no fantasy resonance, sounds too modern and clinical, and if you get pedantic, we actually have a harder time delineating what is and isn't a species these days. If you're at all interested in biological sciences these days, you've probably heard all kinds of debate about what is and isn't a species and a lot of the "common knowledge" that "everyone knows" about the term is factually incorrect. Ancestry sounds like your family history. I have mostly Anglo-Saxon ancestry, with a generous helping of Scottish and a less generous but still significant percentage of Portuguese ancestry. That's the proper use of ancestry, and saying that my character has Dwarvish ancestry suggests implicitly that his great-grandpa was of the Dwarf race, not that my character is.

I can't think off-hand what other alternatives have been floated for fantasy at least, but none of them really work like race does. Not only that, the reason that these companies are abandoning the perfectly functional term race for awkward and less functional alternatives is irritating, so as a stubborn, ornery, crotchety old fart, I'm inclined to be irritated and push back rather than accept them anyway.

What about "genos"?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 12, 2024, 02:02:14 PMWhat about "genos"?

Not sure if that was directed at my post, but genos sorta works, other than sounding a bit pretentious, maybe. It depends on your group. If you have to explain the etymology of the word, then it's not worth doing, but if everyone already knows it, then whatever--it's fine.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 12, 2024, 02:02:14 PMWhat about "genos"?

That's Greek to me.

Quote from: amacris on June 12, 2024, 03:40:49 AMThe reason I use the word "race" in ACKS is because it's the only word in English that can simultaneously mean everything I might need it to mean -- ancestry, breed, ethnicity, and species -- without in any way implying or negating the possibility of shared genetic reproductive capacity and without suggesting modern biological science. Any other word I could choose would cause either an over-fit or under-fit in meaning.

Well said.
Mega dittos.

The alternatives to the term "race" were introduced at a time when the woke crowd felt they had an absolute quorum to make the unilateral decision to do so and in a way to fully demonstrate that they were "owning the chuds."  In article after article, statement after statement, we were told that it was wrong to have ever used the term and it was proof that the early hobby was full of bigots.

The modern "what does it matter?" and "it's just a term change for clarity" BS is gaslighting to make it look like they didn't do it with the accompanying messaging.  Anyone echoing these arguments is either suffering early dementia, very new to the hobby, or a first order lair.  Most of the early "hur, hur, we're owning the chuds" articles and statements bout this term change push are still up on twitter, on reddit, and in articles posted on news sites that cover the hobby. 

The use of new terms in and of itself wouldn't even be a discussion if it hadn't be part of a very overt campaign to politicize gaming as a whole and drive out undesirables.  I don't think I would have even noticed or cared if I had.  Frankly, it's sad to see that these evil fucks have us arguing over the terms rather than denouncing them for their lies and bigotry towards us gamers.  I say torch every book that has "race" intentionally removed, not for the reason of the term changes but because it's one more effort to shove their world view down our throats.

All of this is just more reasons why I will die a counter revolutionary before I embrace any of the Marxist garbage.  The deep dishonesty of it all just pisses me off.

I'm as much of an anti-woke crotchety grognard as anyone here, and I actually prefer Ancestry. It has a fantasy resonance to it, and describes the subject perfectly well. Combined with Background (culture), and Class it works well.

A, B, C

Ancestry, Background, Class.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on June 13, 2024, 04:06:24 AMI'm as much of an anti-woke crotchety grognard as anyone here, and I actually prefer Ancestry. It has a fantasy resonance to it, and describes the subject perfectly well. Combined with Background (culture), and Class it works well.

A, B, C

Ancestry, Background, Class.

That was also the reason I had considered Ancestry as I mentioned upthread... "the ABCs of character creation" is a pithy way of explaining the process to a new player.

The only reason I didn't pull the trigger is that Ancestry felt like a woefully inadequate term when the category wasn't just demihumans, but included manufactured robots and androids along with elemental spirits inhabiting bodies of stone or plants.

Sure, even my use of Race came with a caveat related to longstanding use for "PC options" but that only because my inner etymologist demanded at least a fig leaf justification for why I wasn't using something broad enough to cover sapience across all three kingdoms (animal, plant, mineral and technically energy/spirit all exist).

Race had history as "PC options" in a way Ancestry just didn't even though neither actually fit the bill.

I'm open to be persuaded otherwise, but that's my feeling at the moment (of course I'm also *this* close to renaming my Mystic class to Charismatic because the latter better describes how they obtain the gifts/charisms).

Quote from: SHARK on June 12, 2024, 12:26:59 AMAnd yes, companies are run by Cloud People. *Laughing* Yeah, man, it's all about Marxism now. The big grab for power, riding on race baiting, rainbow degeneracy, feminism, and Marxism. All straight out of Saul Alinsky's book, "Rules For Radicals". The Soviet defector, a KGB official and diplomat, who escaped from Communism, laid out in detail over 40 years ago the Communist's plans for overthrowing America and the West. Everything he said has come true, right down to every method, plan, and program. All designed to sow division, destroy the family, our economy, and corrupt the culture entirely. We have people right now celebrating Communism, hate Capitalism, and are on their knees for a new, all-powerful Commie Mommy State. Just like companies lining up, and flexing, all designed to spread the message, and corrupt the society to the abyss of collapse and Chaos. Profits be damned. This is all about the total corruption of American society--and the ultimate power grab for tyranny once the firestorm really gets going, and the cesspools are flooding the society.

Evil has leveled up several times since Herbert Marcuse and Saul Alinsky. That's what they were doing in the 60s and 70s. They wish they could have done what Clown World routinely does now. Although most people are incapable of imagining the end result of the trends that have already been put into place and already rolled out quite a ways, in the long run, as evil as communism is, the countries that suffered through its rule are observably in a better position than those of the West who have suffered the rule of Clown World. The inevitable near future is going to be very ugly for us, and there's no way to avoid it. It's like standing on the beach saying nothing's wrong while a gigantic tsunami is poised to hit us within minutes.

But anyhow, its indicative of how insidious and ubiquitous the evil of Clown World is that they even come for our hobbies and try to turn gaming against normal people too. It literally burns them up that we're sitting at a table with a few friends talking about normal things and imagining normal fantasies to amuse ourselves in the privacy of our own homes, so they are doing their best to destroy even that.