Quote from: GhostNinja on June 08, 2024, 12:40:29 PMYes, it makes total sense and If I were going to design and sell a game I would do it through my site.  While I have game stores that have rpgs, for the most part they are an afterthought to cards and board games.  I get it that board games and cards (and miniatures) make more money but I would prefer to give my money directly to company so they get 100% of the profit.

I would try to do both as the bigger sites provide a lot of exposure. They'll take more of your profits for not giving them an exclusive but any sale is one you may not have gotten if people didn't know where to find your game.

Quote from: yosemitemike on June 08, 2024, 04:28:48 AMIt's expansive and it doesn't seem to do anything that I couldn't do with any number of other OSR titles for much less or free.  The real time torch gimmick isn't much to differentiate it and I could do that in any OSR game anyway.  I do have a question though.  If adventurers don't have any sort of darkvision and torches are their only light but monsters do, why don't intelligent monsters immediately go after the light every time?  It seems like a very obvious tactic to give them a huge advantage.   

While I don't have it myself iirc "attack the light" is advice given in the gm advice section.

Quote from: Ruprecht on June 08, 2024, 12:49:14 PMI would try to do both as the bigger sites provide a lot of exposure. They'll take more of your profits for not giving them an exclusive but any sale is one you may not have gotten if people didn't know where to find your game.

If I ever do it I will keep it in mind.

I can't speak to the game itself but I discovered the Arcane Library channel shortly before the OGL debacle as I was looking into indie fantasy RPGs and subscribed to follow the general development of the game.  I was more interested in how she designed it as well as the process of funding it and getting it into backer hands (so basically more along on the business and production side).   I was surprised it got as huge as it did but was happy for her... and then even more surprised to see the channel just basically shut after raising so much.   I think she's had a single video put up in the past 7-8 months and I can't help but think she's going to lose momentum from that relative radio silence.  To her credit, she did successfully complete getting her rewards out which is much more important from a consumer perspective though.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 03, 2024, 07:58:47 PMThey got their kickstarter money, and that's all

you still are bitter over her success it sounds like. Didn't she tell you over Twitter that she'd love to talk to you?  Did you ever setup that interview?

  She just won an award up at North Texas and is very big in the convention route.   

As far as her radio silence she's very active in her discord and doing more collabs with other authors. They are releasing a Solo Shaddowdark suppliment for folks to play by themselves if they so choose.

There's a bunch of products out there based on Shadowdark coming out on DTRPG.  As many as OSE? No. OSE has a long headstart and Shadowdark is just getting put out there.

Quote from: RNGm on June 09, 2024, 11:03:47 AMand then even more surprised to see the channel just basically shut after raising so much.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 10, 2024, 04:59:57 PMAs far as her radio silence she's very active in her discord and doing more collabs with other authors.

Seems she just shifted from growing the community to engaging the community, which makes sense for someone who does care about the players more than the money.

I don't think the lower YouTube profile of the game means it's "dead" in anyway. Kelsey was pretty open about not wanting to distribute through DTRPG etc even when she was just making 5e adventures because the cut they take just made it more economicallyy viable to build up a direct sales model. And it paid off in spades for her with the kickstarter - more power to her. A game doesn't need endless new material for it to be "alive".

However, on a slight tangent - I backed both Shadowdark and Ben Milton's Knave 2e and I kind of regret it in both instances. Both are fine OSR games in their own right and the production quality is spot on. But with any straight fantasy OSR type game it seems like you might as well just buy Basic Fantasy or Whitebox Adventure Game for $5 and make any particular tweaks yourself to suit your style of play, rather than drop $30-40 on what is essentially the same thing just with sexier art and design and a few baked in houserules.

Quote from: Alex K on June 11, 2024, 05:56:33 AMHowever, on a slight tangent - I backed both Shadowdark and Ben Milton's Knave 2e and I kind of regret it in both instances. Both are fine OSR games in their own right and the production quality is spot on. But with any straight fantasy OSR type game it seems like you might as well just buy Basic Fantasy or Whitebox Adventure Game for $5 and make any particular tweaks yourself to suit your style of play, rather than drop $30-40 on what is essentially the same thing just with sexier art and design and a few baked in houserules.

Can't comment on Knave, but Shadowdark could have easily just been released as an OSE hack.

The modified classes, and a section on how to turn magic into a casting roll by adding the spell level to 10. Plus some charts to round it out.

Probably less than a third the length of current SD.

But then she wouldn't have her own game community. Can't hate on the hustle...

Greetings!

*Laughing* All of the haters, the critics, the naysayers, usually miss the elephant in the room.

Kelsey has more than 1,000,000 dollars in her bank account, and a successful, popular, and thriving business. Kelsey and Shadowdark has many fans and supporters, and a vibrant future to be even more successful.

All the bitter, jealous, envious squeeling is so funny. Kelsey is more successful and *richer* than anyone on this board, including Pundit.

Shadowdark has like, 300 3rd party products for the game on DTRPG. Her system is growing, just like her fanbase and the community surrounding Shadowdark.

I think Shadowdark should be celebrated. Kelsey should be applauded for her game writing skills, her passion, and devotion to gaming, and the OSR.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PMGreetings!

*Laughing* All of the haters, the critics, the naysayers, usually miss the elephant in the room.

Kelsey has more than 1,000,000 dollars in her bank account, and a successful, popular, and thriving business. Kelsey and Shadowdark has many fans and supporters, and a vibrant future to be even more successful.

All the bitter, jealous, envious squeeling is so funny. Kelsey is more successful and *richer* than anyone on this board, including Pundit.

Shadowdark has like, 300 3rd party products for the game on DTRPG. Her system is growing, just like her fanbase and the community surrounding Shadowdark.

I think Shadowdark should be celebrated. Kelsey should be applauded for her game writing skills, her passion, and devotion to gaming, and the OSR.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes. We should celebrate OSR successes, not hate on them. Save the hate for those who deserve it.

Quote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PM*Laughing* All of the haters, the critics, the naysayers, usually miss the elephant in the room.
...

All the bitter, jealous, envious squeeling is so funny. Kelsey is more successful and *richer* than anyone on this board, including Pundit.

Quote from: Aglondir on June 11, 2024, 05:48:22 PMYes. We should celebrate OSR successes, not hate on them. Save the hate for those who deserve it.

Who's hating? Who's squeeling?

I went back through the thread. Aside from some flippant remarks in two whole posts on the first page, who are the haters?

Honestly who?

Because after the first few posts, people are just giving their opinions on the game, like they would in any other thread.

I'll back that idea.  Hats off to Dion and Shadowdark.

I'll doubt I'll ever play it, but it's a decently good game that's not my gaming style.

But, then again, my current favorite games are even MORE obscure.  Im hardly a good test subject for this sort of thing.  I like Tiny D6, Pocket Fantasy, Kogarashi, and Mini-six Bare Bones. 

Quote from: Jaeger on June 11, 2024, 04:40:18 PM

Quote from: Alex K on June 11, 2024, 05:56:33 AMHowever, on a slight tangent - I backed both Shadowdark and Ben Milton's Knave 2e and I kind of regret it in both instances. Both are fine OSR games in their own right and the production quality is spot on. But with any straight fantasy OSR type game it seems like you might as well just buy Basic Fantasy or Whitebox Adventure Game for $5 and make any particular tweaks yourself to suit your style of play, rather than drop $30-40 on what is essentially the same thing just with sexier art and design and a few baked in houserules.

Can't comment on Knave, but Shadowdark could have easily just been released as an OSE hack.

The modified classes, and a section on how to turn magic into a casting roll by adding the spell level to 10. Plus some charts to round it out.

Probably less than a third the length of current SD.

But then she wouldn't have her own game community. Can't hate on the hustle...

This was my outlook on it, and it's only gotten moreso in the past year. Others can buy what they want, but for myself I don't see the point in creating or buying any more 4-class generic dungeon-fantasy OSR games. Other than minor tweaks that I could easily read about in a blog-post and then homebrew into my OSR game of choice, it's all been done at this point.

Quote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PMI think Shadowdark should be celebrated. Kelsey should be applauded for her game writing skills, her passion, and devotion to gaming, and the OSR.

Well said, sir! Amen.

Quote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PMKelsey has more than 1,000,000 dollars in her bank account, and a successful, popular, and thriving business. Kelsey and Shadowdark has many fans and supporters, and a vibrant future to be even more successful.

Well, no. There were actual costs associated with ShadowDark, so the funds raised by the Kickstarter aren't all just in her bank. I don't know how much she had to pony up to produce the thing, but it wasn't nothing.

Not arguing that it isn't successful, especially for an Indie game. But it wasn't THAT successful.

Quote from: SHARKI think Shadowdark should be celebrated. Kelsey should be applauded for her game writing skills, her passion, and devotion to gaming, and the OSR.

Yeah, anyone who can make a good living as an indie game designer should be celebrated. That's living the dream. And Kelsey seems to go out of her way to hustle, so good on her. I wonder how devoted she is to the OSR. Or Ben Milton for that matter (didn't someone mention Knave 2e up there too?) While both games are OSR-like in some ways, and Knave 2e even calls itself an OSR game, I'm not sure that I agree that it is, or that it's really as compatible with OSR games as he claims it is. I think the OSR has long ago become such a watered down marketing term that claiming to be OSR doesn't really mean much of anything specific anymore.

That said, I always say that I'm not old-school, but I am old-fashioned. I don't have a dog in this race, because I'm not really an OSR guy either. I am, however, at least somewhat sympathetic to the OSR and its desire to stake out both a playstyle and a common-enough core of mechanics. Which is exactly why I see some games that claim to be modern-OSR hybrids, like ShadowDark, Knave, or Five Torches Deep, etc. as to at least some degree trying to cash in on the cachet of the OSR as a pseudo-brand rather than actually offering anything that's distinctly OSR.

I also wonder if, even if they are pretty spiffy books, and by all appearances they are (if Knave would actually ship, that is), they really offer anything to OSR folks that they have any need or use for other than a pretty coffee table style book that they can show off... but who won't actually use much if anything in it.