Quote from: ForgottenF on June 03, 2024, 07:34:56 PMI was pretty harsh on Shadowdark when it came out. My opinion on it hasn't changed on it, but in fairness its extremely rare for a new game to make much of a lasting impact.  I think Dragonbane is the only new RPG I've seen evidence of people continuing to play on a long-term basis in the last couple of years.

One of our DMs ran it for us 3 times.  He then switched to running Dragonbane which he has run like 6 times and planning to run more.  The group consensus is Dragonbane is better than Shadowdark.

Some solo rules for Shadowdark dropped recently, so there has been an up tick in interest for me, but it has not risen to the level of reading any reviews.  Currently quite happy with my Fabula Ultima game.

I think its like a lot of games, they come out, they are popular and are talked about and then things die down and people just play the game and don't talk about it as much.

Didn't back it because I have OSE which is all the fantasy gaming I need.  But lots of people backed it, a lot of people like it so it was definitely a successful game.

Quote from: ForgottenF on June 03, 2024, 07:34:56 PMI was pretty harsh on Shadowdark when it came out. My opinion on it hasn't changed on it, but in fairness its extremely rare for a new game to make much of a lasting impact.  I think Dragonbane is the only new RPG I've seen evidence of people continuing to play on a long-term basis in the last couple of years.

I think this is the nature of the beast. RPG campaigns take a significant investment of time and energy, moreso for a new system. I run a different system every campaign, but I seem to be in the minority there. Most people are only going to put that effort in for a new game if it offers something substantially different than what they already run. That's doubly true in the OSR space, where almost everyone has long ago picked a game they prefer (usually OSE it seems), or are running their own homebrew. One of the things that became clear to me in the discourse around Shadowdark when it came out is that even its most strident defenders can't tell you much that's new that it brings to the table.

The pattern with these big Kickstarters appears to be that they get a bunch of buzz, a lot of people buy in because it looks cool, then the vast majority of those people run the game a handful of times before going back to whatever their go-to already was. I think industry veterans like Kelsey Dionne know that, and design their campaigns around it. I'm not going to go all the way to calling product like Shadowdark a get-rich-quick scheme, but it looks to me like they're very much intended to prioritize intitial Kickstarter revenue over game longevity.

I'll comment on the last bit first.  I've never thought of Shadowdark as a get rich quick scheme.  It's more like a game to get out from under the thumb of D&D/Wizards of the Coast.  They're clearly unstable now when it comes to business and trust. 

When your own business (Arcane Library) is reliant on working on 5E compatible products, then the whole thing turns into a fiasco that might implode at any time, you make your own RPG.

As for Shadowdark itself, I think it's a bit above average, but only a bit.  I own the PDF to see what the big deal is. 

1.  Well written.  Very well written.  Things fit on two open pages so no page flipping needed, charts are in the front few pages ahead of the index, lots of random charts. 

2.  5E gear traits, which I like.  Only thing missing was 1-handed battle axes that lead to a meme that the Shadowdark universe just doesn't have 1-handed axes. 

3.  Character advancement is a random table roll.  Our matching starter characters won't match for long, and I like that.

4.  Non-Vancian magic.  I never liked Vancian magic.   

But, the bad.

1.  It only has four classes in the main book.  Boring. 

2.  Magic fails can go horribly wrong and hurt you or the group.  Some people like this.  I don't.

3.  It doesn't stand out for any reason.  I've seen all these tricks before in other games.  Dion just used and combined a bunch of known game features, and invented nothing new.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I like alternate games to do something unique.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 06, 2024, 01:07:12 PM1.  Well written.  Very well written.  Things fit on two open pages so no page flipping needed, charts are in the front few pages ahead of the index, lots of random charts. 
2.  5E gear traits, which I like.  Only thing missing was 1-handed battle axes that lead to a meme that the Shadowdark universe just doesn't have 1-handed axes. 
3.  Character advancement is a random table roll.  Our matching starter characters won't match for long, and I like that.
4.  Non-Vancian magic.  I never liked Vancian magic.   

But, the bad.
1.  It only has four classes in the main book.  Boring. 
2.  Magic fails can go horribly wrong and hurt you or the group.  Some people like this.  I don't.
3.  It doesn't stand out for any reason.  I've seen all these tricks before in other games.  Dion just used and combined a bunch of known game features, and invented nothing new.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I like alternate games to do something unique.

Actually I'm a fan of the first two things on your bad list (4 classes and dangerous magic).
Your number 3 on the good list though, I'm unsure about the character advancement and was hoping to hear someone comment on that.

I think it looks like a solid game, the books are beautiful and the art is evocative. My only issues are:
1. Only sold through Arcane Library. That bugs me for some reason. I'll probably get over it at some point.
2. The torch time = Everyone raves about it on reviews but it seems silly.
3. PDF = $30 seems very high for a pdf.

Quote from: Dracones on June 05, 2024, 03:12:02 PMBut hey, it's at 560k on day 4 when 13th Age 2nd edition is about half that on day 29. Clearly, the new kids on the block understand better how to market in today's Kickstarter scene.

Indeed it's a simple formula:

• start with a channel discussing D&D
• write a game which can easily be identified as a variant of D&D
• network with influencers involved with D&D

And because of that #DC20 will likely fade into the shadows once the next fantasy heartbreaker darling makes its debut.

Quote from: Ruprecht on June 07, 2024, 09:29:02 AMI think it looks like a solid game, the books are beautiful and the art is evocative. My only issues are:

1. Only sold through Arcane Library. That bugs me for some reason. I'll probably get over it at some point.

Do you have any idea why this bothers you?

Quote from: Ruprecht on June 07, 2024, 09:29:02 AM2. The torch time = Everyone raves about it on reviews but it seems silly.

It's the way it was done in old D&D.  That's how it is done in OSE.  Makes perfect sense.  Lighting a torch that just lasts forever is nonsense.

Quote from: Ruprecht on June 07, 2024, 09:29:02 AM3. PDF = $30 seems very high for a pdf.

Yes, way too much for a .pdf.  Although, I am a print or nothing person so I do not buy .pdfs.  Ever

Quote from: GhostNinja on June 07, 2024, 11:29:17 AMDo you have any idea why this bothers you?

It means typing out my credit card info in another site that might be hacked, also it almost feels like the game is hiding.

Quote from: GhostNinja on June 07, 2024, 11:29:17 AMIt's the way it was done in old D&D.  That's how it is done in OSE.  Makes perfect sense.  Lighting a torch that just lasts forever is nonsense.

My copy of OSE basic makes a clear distinction between game time and real time. I never used real time in old D&D. Combat could take an hour of play time but only take 5 minutes of game time (1 round = 1 minute in 1E). So your group would have torches go out because you set a timer and the combat took an hour because you were making Holy Grail Jokes? I think you are misunderstanding the Shadowdark torch time rules. Everyone that reviewed it said it was unique.

Quote from: Ruprecht on June 07, 2024, 12:18:18 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on June 07, 2024, 11:29:17 AMDo you have any idea why this bothers you?

It means typing out my credit card info in another site that might be hacked, also it almost feels like the game is hiding.

Dionne and Runehammer (whose new game Crown & Skull is only available thru his site) have talked about this. In their calculations, the fees collected by DriveThru RPG, Amazon, Ebay, and distributors that sell wholesale to FLGS's make those channels less profitable and more hassle than selling from their own websites *if* their marketing - YouTube, email lists, social media, word of mouth - is on point. Sly Flourish has spoken about this as well. So Arcane Library and Runehammer are investing in their direct marketing efforts rather than using more traditional distribution channels.

Are they really making more money that way? No idea. But it does mean that they have complete control over their entire show from production to distribution to support. I don't blame a creator for seeking that control.

I believe Grim Jim does it as well. They should find a way to combine forces.

It's expansive and it doesn't seem to do anything that I couldn't do with any number of other OSR titles for much less or free.  The real time torch gimmick isn't much to differentiate it and I could do that in any OSR game anyway.  I do have a question though.  If adventurers don't have any sort of darkvision and torches are their only light but monsters do, why don't intelligent monsters immediately go after the light every time?  It seems like a very obvious tactic to give them a huge advantage.   

Shadowdark and DC20 are typical examples of games that make a big splash on Kickstarter but then fade into obscurity. It's fatal for brand visibility and brand awareness if a game isn't available as a physical copy on Amazon or through other online rpg vendors. Shadowdark might have found a niche in the North American market, but it's practically non-existent everywhere else because it is only available through the Arcane Library. The same fate will probably befall DC20 and MCDM.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on June 08, 2024, 05:41:58 AMShadowdark and DC20 are typical examples of games that make a big splash on Kickstarter but then fade into obscurity. It's fatal for brand visibility and brand awareness if a game isn't available as a physical copy on Amazon or through other online rpg vendors. Shadowdark might have found a niche in the North American market, but it's practically non-existent everywhere else because it is only available through the Arcane Library. The same fate will probably befall DC20 and MCDM.

Interestingly enough, Castles & Crusades, which according to their owners has experienced a massive expansion in interest since the OGL fiasco, has just announced they're expanding into Hungary, putting out an edition in Magyar.  I can't imagine that's a huge market, but C&C has been around for about 20 years and is retaining and even expanding its niche, which is cool.  They've also announced that they're taking measures to expand physical distribution, which I do think is key to lasting popularity.  I've seen their physical products in a fair number of bookstores & gaming stores, but nothing like D&D or Pathfinder.

Quote from: yosemitemike on June 08, 2024, 04:28:48 AMIf adventurers don't have any sort of darkvision and torches are their only light but monsters do, why don't intelligent monsters immediately go after the light every time?  It seems like a very obvious tactic to give them a huge advantage.   

A good GM would have intelligent creatures use that tactic. Either that or a room full of flammables... I don't think the game itself goes into that level of tactics but they should. The monster descriptions are super-short.

Quote from: Festus on June 07, 2024, 02:00:07 PMDionne and Runehammer (whose new game Crown & Skull is only available thru his site) have talked about this. In their calculations, the fees collected by DriveThru RPG, Amazon, Ebay, and distributors that sell wholesale to FLGS's make those channels less profitable and more hassle than selling from their own websites *if* their marketing - YouTube, email lists, social media, word of mouth - is on point. Sly Flourish has spoken about this as well. So Arcane Library and Runehammer are investing in their direct marketing efforts rather than using more traditional distribution channels.

Yes, it makes total sense and If I were going to design and sell a game I would do it through my site.  While I have game stores that have rpgs, for the most part they are an afterthought to cards and board games.  I get it that board games and cards (and miniatures) make more money but I would prefer to give my money directly to company so they get 100% of the profit.