Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMSo, looking over "The Last White Man", and looking for racism defined (by Eirikrautha) as "a belief that human beings have certain heritable traits due to their race that will determine that all members of one race will be inferior to the other."

Note that I will use "white race" and "black race" to describe the groups in the stories, because that is what the story describes -- but I also think this falls into racial essentialism, thinking that those are objectively important categories as far as genetics, and are important for dividing masses of people.

But sticking to just the racism part:

---

Let's take direct descriptions of the races. From the opening paragraphs, here's how the story describes the white race:

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe man was a wonder, physically. Over six feet in height, his chest and shoulders were those of a giant. Weighing far over two hundred pounds, he yet gave the impression of sinuous speed. His face was sullen, savage, almost primitive, small black eyes glittering through tangled strands of sandy hair. In one hand he clutched a rifle. A curved scimitar of surprizing proportions lay beside him.

He was a splendid example of a wonderful race. A race which reached physical perfection, sank to the depths of degeneracy and then regained the heights just before their fall. He was the last.

and also

Quote from: R.E. HowardThere had been an age when his race had ruled the world. Their cities dotted the fertile plains. Their ships had furrowed the seas, bringing back the wealth of every land. Their armies had gone forth conquering and subjugating.

None could stand before them in the more peaceful sports. Their athletes defeated all others with ease. They were all giants, physically and mentally.

Emphasis mine there in the end.

Now, the story also says that the blacks were strong, but it describes them differently. Here's a description of them:

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe blacks were physical giants, mighty fighting organisms, whose highest wish was slaughter and plunder.

and

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

Now, blacks are described as strong when here at their prime, but they are clearly mentally and morally inferior to the whites. Physically, there is some see-saw described. Whites are described as superior physically at first, but they lost their physical edge, only gaining it back towards the end. On other fronts, the blacks are clearly inferior, except for their "animal-like rate of birth" which I don't think is intended as a positive trait.

---

Beyond the direct description, though, the events of the race wars show this. The blacks lead the charge to wipe out all the white of Europe, then invade the U.S. to invade there. That is a negative portrayal of black people, which demonstrates their desire to "slaughter and plunder" even if the story hadn't used those exact words to describe the black race.

Also, in the end, they charge using only spears - which illustrates how they are unable to create weapons like rifles. The story says that they can't create weapons, and it also illustrates it by how they attack.

The general theme of the story is the danger of the black race, who will wipe out the whites if given the chance. That is the future being portrayed, which he described to his friend Tevis Clyde Smith via letter as a "warning to the white races" (from jeff37923's link).

---

The leader of the blacks was not black himself, but that isn't a counter to the idea of black inferiority. As the story describes the leader:

Quote from: R.E. HowardThey were a strong, young race. Their day was yet to come. All they lacked was a leader.

And a leader had risen. A mixed-breed Arab, whose ambition was without measure, whose genius was Satanic.

He welded them into one great mass, gave them white man's weapons, furnished by Americans and Europeans who would have as quickly and readily sold their own sisters' souls if the price were high enough.

Describing him as "Satanic" is clearly a negative. Moreover, it implies that the blacks are unable to have a leader of their own race. I don't think that is a positive for either black people or mixed-breed people.

---

I'll stop there for now.

And what's the relevance when talking about Conan? Are you claiming Conan is the protagonist?

IMNSHO the only "relevance" is you trying to establish that REH himself was a raicismist, ergo everything he wrote must be judged under that particular lens.

IIRC you mounted a staunch defense of Coyote & Crow claiming the author wasn't racist even tho his premise is that without the Huwhite devil the "diversity" would build an utopia. You were very adamant in this.

So, that piece of fiction tells us nothing about it's author but TLWM tells us everything we need to know about REH.

I'll ask you one last time, stick to Conan and argue your case about the raicismism in the Conan stories since that's the point of the thread.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 29, 2024, 07:22:16 AMBullshit.  I'm not letting you get away with your duplicity.  First, point out where in my quote I said "some stories could be racist - but this couldn't apply to Howard."  This is a blatant misrepresentation, and you know it.  Nowhere in that did I say Howard couldn't be racist.  In fact, right below the passage you quoted, I said,

He only reads what fits his narrative.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 29, 2024, 03:52:26 PMI sometimes think we need like a 20 year moratorium on the word "racism", until we can all chill out and agree on what it actually means.

Usually with each wave of this mental disease some term gets twisted out of shape. All to often its rape or racism. Also usually by people who can not differentiate fiction from reality. This 2010 wave is just exponentially worse than any prior.

The Rascal article is just a recent example. jhkim is a not so recent example.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:38:49 AMAs a brief aside, Eirikrautha said this about me earlier:

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 26, 2024, 10:54:09 AMReally, I feel kind of sorry for him.  I'm sure he's sitting at home, convinced he's owning us chuds, and bringing civilization to the savages on the RPGSite (though he could never frame it that way... because "colonization" and [insert woke verbiage here]).

So, around here I will sometimes argue like I think I'm right. Again, I appreciate the Mos Eisley atmosphere of this forum, and Pundit's strong free speech position. Sometimes I'll be blunt, without putting a lot into sparing other people's feelings.

Even so, I think I'm at least above-average as far as talking respectfully to people I disagree with by theRPGsite standards, rather than treating them like chuds.

Then do it in one of Pundits threads and keep doing it when he tells you to fuck off and see how long before you get deleted. You have wasted page after page in just this thread desperately trying to convert any rube you can to your cult.

Thanks for the detailed claims of racism. Let's take them one by one.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AM

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

Now, blacks are described as strong when here at their prime, but they are clearly mentally and morally inferior to the whites. Physically, there is some see-saw described. Whites are described as superior physically at first, but they lost their physical edge, only gaining it back towards the end.

I don't see anything that says that blacks are "mentally and morally inferior". They're fighting a war, and the weapons factories of Europe and then the Americas are destroyed. The book doesn't suggest that blacks were unable to learn how to make weapons. And I don't see anything that questions their morality. Indeed, it's made clear in the story that the blacks have a reason for their all-out war:

Quote from: R.E. HowardAnd a new, strong race had risen. A race whose people had been enslaved for ages.

So they're not fighting because of a moral failing on their part.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMOn other fronts, the blacks are clearly inferior, except for their "animal-like rate of birth" which I don't think is intended as a positive trait.

Isn't it? It's what gives them the edge and lets them win the war. The story also says:

Quote from: R.E. HowardAnd the white race was exhausted by dissipation; birth rate almost ceased.

So there you see that the whites are doomed even without the other races fighting them, because of their almost non-existent birth rate. I think a higher birth rate is clearly something good to have in the world of this story.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMBeyond the direct description, though, the events of the race wars show this. The blacks lead the charge to wipe out all the white of Europe, then invade the U.S. to invade there. That is a negative portrayal of black people, which demonstrates their desire to "slaughter and plunder" even if the story hadn't used those exact words to describe the black race.

As I pointed out, the blacks in the story are given a reason for their actions beyond some inherent badness. You could just as easily claim that it's a negative portrayal of white people because they enslaved another race for ages, or because they became decadent and:

Quote from: R.E. HowardHe ... gave them white man's weapons, furnished by Americans and Europeans who would have as quickly and readily sold their own sisters' souls if the price were high enough.

The story gives a mixture of good and bad actions to all races, often rising and falling as they degenerate or become better people. I don't see any evidence that one race is treated particularly badly in that way.

Quote from: R.E. HowardAlso, in the end, they charge using only spears - which illustrates how they are unable to create weapons like rifles. The story says that they can't create weapons, and it also illustrates it by how they attack.

Because the weapon factories were in Europe and the Americas, which is where the fighting was. And the story makes clear that the blacks increase in number, so once the factories are destroyed, there are going to be fewer and fewer good weapons and more men, so of course it's going to become rarer and rarer for blacks to have good weapons. On the other hand, I doubt the titular last white man knows how to build a rifle either. He's got a weapon and ammo from a prior time, presumably passed down through his dwindling family. If his family had had lots of children at each generation, he'd probably have had to make do with a spear.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMThe general theme of the story is the danger of the black race, who will wipe out the whites if given the chance. That is the future being portrayed, which he described to his friend Tevis Clyde Smith via letter as a "warning to the white races" (from jeff37923's link).

It's a story in which the blacks wipe out the whites. That doesn't make it inherently a warning that such a thing will happen in the real world. And I'm going to ignore Howard's letter; we've gone from "overt racism" in the Conan stories, to overt racism in his wider body of work. Please don't try to shift the goalposts to covert racism in Howard's wider body of work. If it's overt, you don't need substantiating evidence, you can just point to the quotes that make it clear.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMThe leader of the blacks was not black himself, but that isn't a counter to the idea of black inferiority.

All that shows is that the blacks are open minded enough to allow themselves to be led by a non-black. I'd say that was another positive for them. And the blacks win the war; they're clearly not inferior. The leader is described as "a mixed-breed Arab". It's not clear what "mixed-breed" means there, but I think it means he's part Arab and part black. So we see someone with black ancestry having great mental abilities. So much for the claim of them being mentally inferior in the story!

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMAs the story describes the leader:

Quote from: R.E. HowardThey were a strong, young race. Their day was yet to come. All they lacked was a leader.

And a leader had risen. A mixed-breed Arab, whose ambition was without measure, whose genius was Satanic.

He welded them into one great mass, gave them white man's weapons, furnished by Americans and Europeans who would have as quickly and readily sold their own sisters' souls if the price were high enough.

Describing him as "Satanic" is clearly a negative."

It's a negative on one man. There's no suggestion that it's a racial Satanic genius, just that one man had it.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMMoreover, it implies that the blacks are unable to have a leader of their own race. I don't think that is a positive for either black people or mixed-breed people.

Where does it imply that? They needed a great leader to arise, but it doesn't say that such a man couldn't have been black. By way of counter-example, I'm British. The majority of Brits are white, yet our Prime Minister is Asian. Does that imply to you that white Brits are "unable to have a leader of their own race"? Or just that they're open-minded people, who don't hate others based on not being the same race as them? And this goes back to your suggestion of moral failings for them launching a race war. They're not anti-everyone else, as their choice of leader shows. The story gives another reason for their war.

Quote from: Krazz on May 30, 2024, 05:29:25 AMThanks for the detailed claims of racism. Let's take them one by one.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AM

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

Now, blacks are described as strong when here at their prime, but they are clearly mentally and morally inferior to the whites. Physically, there is some see-saw described. Whites are described as superior physically at first, but they lost their physical edge, only gaining it back towards the end.

I don't see anything that says that blacks are "mentally and morally inferior". They're fighting a war, and the weapons factories of Europe and then the Americas are destroyed. The book doesn't suggest that blacks were unable to learn how to make weapons. And I don't see anything that questions their morality. Indeed, it's made clear in the story that the blacks have a reason for their all-out war:

Quote from: R.E. HowardAnd a new, strong race had risen. A race whose people had been enslaved for ages.

So they're not fighting because of a moral failing on their part.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMOn other fronts, the blacks are clearly inferior, except for their "animal-like rate of birth" which I don't think is intended as a positive trait.

Isn't it? It's what gives them the edge and lets them win the war. The story also says:

Quote from: R.E. HowardAnd the white race was exhausted by dissipation; birth rate almost ceased.

So there you see that the whites are doomed even without the other races fighting them, because of their almost non-existent birth rate. I think a higher birth rate is clearly something good to have in the world of this story.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMBeyond the direct description, though, the events of the race wars show this. The blacks lead the charge to wipe out all the white of Europe, then invade the U.S. to invade there. That is a negative portrayal of black people, which demonstrates their desire to "slaughter and plunder" even if the story hadn't used those exact words to describe the black race.

As I pointed out, the blacks in the story are given a reason for their actions beyond some inherent badness. You could just as easily claim that it's a negative portrayal of white people because they enslaved another race for ages, or because they became decadent and:

Quote from: R.E. HowardHe ... gave them white man's weapons, furnished by Americans and Europeans who would have as quickly and readily sold their own sisters' souls if the price were high enough.

The story gives a mixture of good and bad actions to all races, often rising and falling as they degenerate or become better people. I don't see any evidence that one race is treated particularly badly in that way.

Quote from: R.E. HowardAlso, in the end, they charge using only spears - which illustrates how they are unable to create weapons like rifles. The story says that they can't create weapons, and it also illustrates it by how they attack.

Because the weapon factories were in Europe and the Americas, which is where the fighting was. And the story makes clear that the blacks increase in number, so once the factories are destroyed, there are going to be fewer and fewer good weapons and more men, so of course it's going to become rarer and rarer for blacks to have good weapons. On the other hand, I doubt the titular last white man knows how to build a rifle either. He's got a weapon and ammo from a prior time, presumably passed down through his dwindling family. If his family had had lots of children at each generation, he'd probably have had to make do with a spear.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMThe general theme of the story is the danger of the black race, who will wipe out the whites if given the chance. That is the future being portrayed, which he described to his friend Tevis Clyde Smith via letter as a "warning to the white races" (from jeff37923's link).

It's a story in which the blacks wipe out the whites. That doesn't make it inherently a warning that such a thing will happen in the real world. And I'm going to ignore Howard's letter; we've gone from "overt racism" in the Conan stories, to overt racism in his wider body of work. Please don't try to shift the goalposts to covert racism in Howard's wider body of work. If it's overt, you don't need substantiating evidence, you can just point to the quotes that make it clear.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMThe leader of the blacks was not black himself, but that isn't a counter to the idea of black inferiority.

All that shows is that the blacks are open minded enough to allow themselves to be led by a non-black. I'd say that was another positive for them. And the blacks win the war; they're clearly not inferior. The leader is described as "a mixed-breed Arab". It's not clear what "mixed-breed" means there, but I think it means he's part Arab and part black. So we see someone with black ancestry having great mental abilities. So much for the claim of them being mentally inferior in the story!

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMAs the story describes the leader:

Quote from: R.E. HowardThey were a strong, young race. Their day was yet to come. All they lacked was a leader.

And a leader had risen. A mixed-breed Arab, whose ambition was without measure, whose genius was Satanic.

He welded them into one great mass, gave them white man's weapons, furnished by Americans and Europeans who would have as quickly and readily sold their own sisters' souls if the price were high enough.

Describing him as "Satanic" is clearly a negative."

It's a negative on one man. There's no suggestion that it's a racial Satanic genius, just that one man had it.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:17:44 AMMoreover, it implies that the blacks are unable to have a leader of their own race. I don't think that is a positive for either black people or mixed-breed people.

Where does it imply that? They needed a great leader to arise, but it doesn't say that such a man couldn't have been black. By way of counter-example, I'm British. The majority of Brits are white, yet our Prime Minister is Asian. Does that imply to you that white Brits are "unable to have a leader of their own race"? Or just that they're open-minded people, who don't hate others based on not being the same race as them? And this goes back to your suggestion of moral failings for them launching a race war. They're not anti-everyone else, as their choice of leader shows. The story gives another reason for their war.

Greetings!

Nice counter-analysis, Krazz!

Yes, it is why I generally ignore the Blah Blah claims and assertions that REH was racist! It all comes down to framing and interpretation. According to the typical begaviour and attitudes of the Woke, virtually *everyone* is racist! Whaah, whaah, whaah, you know?

I just dismiss most such Woke assessments quickly. Yeah? Good! I just don't give a fuck who they think is racist. They believe Lincoln was racist, Washington, and you know, the list goes on and on. They are meaningless. Then we see the Woke crying about REH being racist. Yeah, whatever. They should keep believing that BS. As many have mentioned, it all fits into and has roots in the Commie playbook. Label everything and everyone as terrible, racist, otherwise a deplorable human being, institution, or custom. That way it can be thus marked and destroyed. We see the Woke trying to infect, pollute, and destroy so many things in society currently.

Resisting sophistry is an important skill. I circle back to my collection of Conan books. I don't believe I have read anything within REH's Conan books that I would label as racist. Robert E. Howard was a great author, and a fantastic founding creator of Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery Pulp genre of fiction.

Insisting that Woke troglodytes stick to the subject restrains them, because they cannot effectively tap-dance and employ sophistry to try and change the nature of the conversation. By shifting it, they can rhetorically weasel the discussion into a kind of trial mode, where at first REH is depicted as being guilty--and then, at least the implications are so sweetly *hinted* at--for all the people that have loved someone like REH for decades--what does that mean about themselves? And on and on the sophistry and tap dancing goes. It is all Commie BS. Post Modern BS is rooted in the Marxist philosophy as well. That kind of degenerate BS typically gets taught and promoted in every university.

Just as your analysis has shown here, everything that the Woke declare as being examples of racism, whaah, whaah, is really just how they choose to frame it and interpret REH's writing. The Woke *want* to find racism everywhere, in everything, so of course REH is racist.

Say NO to the Jello! *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 30, 2024, 08:54:13 AMGreetings!

Nice counter-analysis, Krazz!

Thanks. I'm glad you liked it. And I agree - we have to stand up to any claims about the foundations of the hobby that aren't well substantiated. Racism is an easy accusation to throw out, but much harder to prove.

Quote from: SHARK on May 30, 2024, 08:54:13 AMResisting sophistry is an important skill. I circle back to my collection of Conan books. I don't believe I have read anything within REH's Conan books that I would label as racist. Robert E. Howard was a great author, and a fantastic founding creator of Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery Pulp genre of fiction.

You've inspired me to add a signature to my posts. I hope you like it!

Quote from: Omega on May 30, 2024, 04:11:55 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 29, 2024, 07:22:16 AMBullshit.  I'm not letting you get away with your duplicity.  First, point out where in my quote I said "some stories could be racist - but this couldn't apply to Howard."  This is a blatant misrepresentation, and you know it.  Nowhere in that did I say Howard couldn't be racist.  In fact, right below the passage you quoted, I said,

He only reads what fits his narrative.

True, but it is fun to watch him squirm in his mental gymnastics.

Couldn't help but noticed my value inquiry remains unaddressed.

Quote from: Brad on May 27, 2024, 09:12:20 AMCommunists aren't people, and they don't have "an opposing ideology", they are psychopathic meat robots whose only goal is totalitarianism and complete control over the masses. This is demonstrated throughout history, hence, yes, the cost is absolutely worth it. Legitimate political disagreements should be debated and discussed. Communists just through out ad hominems instantly, then dox your ass if you don't follow along. So, to reiterate, fuck them and they can all burn in Hell.

Ironically they feel exactly the same way about folks like you.

Quote from: Krazz on May 27, 2024, 02:36:57 PMDid he? I saw a bunch of quotes from Shadows in Zamboula. Can you explain which is a solid example of racism, and exactly what is so solidly racist about it please?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 27, 2024, 02:50:42 PMSorry for being nitpicky about this, but where in personal correspondence? Is this just the "normal" racism that was accepted in the 1920s or does it show a personal and exceptional targeting and denigration of races?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 27, 2024, 04:49:24 PMHere's Shadows in Zamboula, now, can anyone point EXACTLY where is the racismism?

#QED

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 02:21:12 AMThe relevance to me about "The Last White Man" is why we disagree. How is it that you (Anon) say "of course" it is racist, but others strongly argue against that conclusion?

Because they hold a single ideological interpretation and adopting any other would be siding with the enemy.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 29, 2024, 05:59:12 AMSince jhkim is adamant about The Last White Man being racist and not just a story using racist characters to further the plot, obviously jhkim is also racist for only seeing this aspect.

Do you now see how your own logic works?

...being racist

...using racist characters

Yeah not seeing any logic at work here at all.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 29, 2024, 07:22:16 AMI'm not letting you get away with your duplicity.  First, point out where in my quote I said "some stories could be racist - but this couldn't apply to Howard."  This is a blatant misrepresentation, and you know it.  Nowhere in that did I say Howard couldn't be racist.

He does this and then wonders why people react negatively to his comments...

Quote from: Krazz on May 29, 2024, 12:12:07 PMI've done nothing of the sort. I've not even read the story, so I wouldn't argue one way or the other, and I've not discussed it prior to this post.

...over and over again.

Quote from: Krazz on May 29, 2024, 12:12:07 PMFrom what you've written, it sounds as racist as Planet of the Apes is anti-ape for showing a conflict along species lines.

Fun fact: The ape actors ate lunch together based on the species they were dressed as. So even arbitrary visual identifiers can drive this sort of behavior.

Quote from: Krazz on May 29, 2024, 12:12:07 PMI was referring to the Conan stories, and I was a little sloppy talking about "any Howard".

Seems everyone got the memo except for one.

Quote from: Krazz on May 29, 2024, 12:12:07 PMI still maintain that nobody has provided evidence of overt racism in any of Howard's works, and in particular his Conan stories, which were what was under discussion.

I see lots of goalposts moving about.

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 01:05:18 PMIt's not postmodernist to think words like "racism" should have a consistent and objective meaning.

Indeed, but we're currently fighting a culture war over who gets to decide that consistent and objective meaning.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 29, 2024, 03:52:26 PMI sometimes think we need like a 20 year moratorium on the word "racism", until we can all chill out and agree on what it actually means.

20 years is a rather ambitious timeframe for humans to chill out and agree on anything.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 29, 2024, 03:52:26 PMAs far as the Conan stories go, I'd be reluctant to ascribe racial animosity to anything in them, simply because Howard pretty universally stereotypes and/or caricatures real world cultures to come up with their Hyborian analogues, and he can be surprisingly even-handed. Just as the Africans who get a pretty rough characterization in "Shadows in Zamboula" get a much more sympathetic one in something like "Wings in the Night" or "The Footfalls Within", Howard's own beloved Picts get remade from the Kull stories, in which they are noble savages par excellence, to the Conan ones, where they are made out savages of the least noble kind, and then get kind of rehabilitated via the Bran Mak Morn stories.

Fair.

Quote from: Krazz on May 29, 2024, 06:26:04 PMThere's a race war in the story. I'm not suggesting it's a delusion. There's clearly a large amount of racism in-story. But what makes the story itself overtly racist? What are "the characterizations of the black race" that are overtly racist?

So what makes a story about a race war with large amounts of racism in it overtly racist?

...

No idea.

I'm going to focus on just the first passage here.

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

Quote from: Krazz on May 30, 2024, 05:29:25 AMI don't see anything that says that blacks are "mentally and morally inferior". They're fighting a war, and the weapons factories of Europe and then the Americas are destroyed. The book doesn't suggest that blacks were unable to learn how to make weapons. And I don't see anything that questions their morality.

It explicitly says "when they slew white men, progress ceased". That differentiates the races by their capacity for progress. Why wouldn't the black people make weapons and weapon factories for themselves, if they were capable? 

You argue later that "animal-like rate of birth" is intended as a positive, but can you really suggest anyone - black or white - who would take kindly to be complimented on their group's "animal-like rate of birth"?

More generally, is there any story or game that you do consider racist? For example, Eirikrautha earlier suggested he thought The Birth of a Nation (1915) was racist. Alternately, GeekyBugle cited Coyote & Crow (2022) as racist. Could you demonstrate your standard of proof in showing how something fulfills it?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 30, 2024, 02:05:04 PM

Quote from: Krazz on May 29, 2024, 06:26:04 PMThere's a race war in the story. I'm not suggesting it's a delusion. There's clearly a large amount of racism in-story. But what makes the story itself overtly racist? What are "the characterizations of the black race" that are overtly racist?

So what makes a story about a race war with large amounts of racism in it overtly racist?

...

No idea.

I thought the text you quoted made this clear. Let me give you a simile: Schindler's List contains a lot of anti-Semitism. A lot. Does that make the film "overtly anti-Semitic"? Now do you see that a story about racism isn't itself necessarily racist?

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:18:31 PMI'm going to focus on just the first passage here.

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

QUOTE FROM A CHARACTER IN A STORY WRITTEN BY ROBERT E HOWARD YOU LYING PIECE OF SHIT!!

What the fuck! Is every character a writer creates now a stand-in for the writer? Is every character or non-player character you roleplay in a game now actually just you?

Quote from: Krazz on May 30, 2024, 05:29:25 AMI don't see anything that says that blacks are "mentally and morally inferior". They're fighting a war, and the weapons factories of Europe and then the Americas are destroyed. The book doesn't suggest that blacks were unable to learn how to make weapons. And I don't see anything that questions their morality.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:18:31 PMIt explicitly says "when they slew white men, progress ceased". That differentiates the races by their capacity for progress. Why wouldn't the black people make weapons and weapon factories for themselves, if they were capable? 

You argue later that "animal-like rate of birth" is intended as a positive, but can you really suggest anyone - black or white - who would take kindly to be complimented on their group's "animal-like rate of birth"?

More generally, is there any story or game that you do consider racist? For example, Eirikrautha earlier suggested he thought The Birth of a Nation (1915) was racist. Alternately, GeekyBugle cited Coyote & Crow (2022) as racist. Could you demonstrate your standard of proof in showing how something fulfills it?

Um, those people who you keep saying are the victims of racism won the war in the story. So they are both the winners and the victims at the same time to you?

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:18:31 PMI'm going to focus on just the first passage here.

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

Quote from: Krazz on May 30, 2024, 05:29:25 AMI don't see anything that says that blacks are "mentally and morally inferior". They're fighting a war, and the weapons factories of Europe and then the Americas are destroyed. The book doesn't suggest that blacks were unable to learn how to make weapons. And I don't see anything that questions their morality.

It explicitly says "when they slew white men, progress ceased". That differentiates the races by their capacity for progress. Why wouldn't the black people make weapons and weapon factories for themselves, if they were capable?

You argue later that "animal-like rate of birth" is intended as a positive, but can you really suggest anyone - black or white - who would take kindly to be complimented on their group's "animal-like rate of birth"?

More generally, is there any story or game that you do consider racist? For example, Eirikrautha earlier suggested he thought The Birth of a Nation (1915) was racist. Alternately, GeekyBugle cited Coyote & Crow (2022) as racist. Could you demonstrate your standard of proof in showing how something fulfills it?

Because "They did not even know the art of making weapons." Meaning MODERN weapons of course.

But more importantly, since you OBVIOUSLY read my posts, care to tell us WHY is TLWM in any way shape or form RELEVANT in a discussion about Conan stories?

My guess is you don't and won't because I nailed your reason to keep dragging and derailing the thread to it:
You think it proves REH a raicismist and by extension all of his works are raicismist too.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 02:37:51 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:18:31 PMI'm going to focus on just the first passage here.

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

QUOTE FROM A CHARACTER IN A STORY WRITTEN BY ROBERT E HOWARD YOU LYING PIECE OF SHIT!!

What the fuck! Is every character a writer creates now a stand-in for the writer? Is every character or non-player character you roleplay in a game now actually just you?

Only the ones written by the wrong kind of people, since he engages in passionate defense of shit like Coyote & Crow, both claiming it's not racist and the author isn't either.

But in C&C the "diversity", as soon as the Huwhite Devil is extinct engages in cumbaya and reaches a utopia.

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 01:05:18 PMJust because someone comes from a communist society, that doesn't mean that they're not communist. They're still a communist - it's just that their reasons for being communist should be considered to fully understand them. The same applies for racism.

If I read a story and don't know who the author is or when it was written, I can still describe it objectively and factually using words, including "racism".

 Tell that to the Solidarity movement in Poland during the Cold War. Or the Order of the White Rose in Germany, students who opposed Nazis in their own country. They were opposed to communism and Nazism in their respective countries and were in no way, shape or form communists or Nazis. You made a blanket statement that holds no water.

Same goes for racism. you can live in a racists society, but it doesn't make you a racist. And people speak out against it. Ya know, like repealing Jim Crow laws and the civil rights movement of the 60s.

If someone uses racism as part of the story, including characters who reflect that, it does not make the author racist, unless that author explicitly states they are IRL (people can also change over time too). I'd think the author of Lovecraft Country and Spielberg about Schiendler's List would agree. There are many more I could cite, but I'm sure you could find more.

I'm done. Have a nice day.

I now eagerly await seeing how you'll move the goal posts.