I feel like mechanically a lack of alignment would make being a cleric of good a no-go. Maybe they'll make clerics able to have no deity and operate off of ideals or something like Paladins, but with less mechanical restrictions or interfacing? Likewise, if they bring in iconic characters of Greyhawk I can't see them not revising large sections of their lore to fit with modern woke ideology. Even the setting's focus on greed and adventure as the primary PC and NPC motivations seems unlikely to be left untouched. I can't see the churches of good folks not like Iuz and the like being set up as still a primary positive influence on the setting, likewise. Wherefore then is the setting still demonstrably Greyhawk, apart from a map and some names?

Also, I'm calling it now, Wastri will be the setting's big bad or something, and responsible for humanocentric oppression either now or in the past. My tinfoil hat is on, but perhaps not undeservedly.

Mystara is fantasy Cold War, with powerful empires in an uneasy cease-fire. There are a variety of nations, each with a theme, more or less. Adventure is found on the frontiers, to begin with.

In the Nentir Vale, there is no empire. There used to be an empire, and life was pretty good while it existed, but the Ruler of Ruin and his gnoll hordes destroyed it. Around a century ago, the vale, itself, was overrun by rampaging orcs.

Now, life is hard. Civilization barely survives in a few small towns and villages. The landscape is littered with abandoned manor houses, potentially filled with treasure, and certainly infested with monsters. Opportunities for adventure abound.

I don't know much about Greyhawk, but I get the impression it is similar to the Nentir Vale.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 23, 2024, 10:49:03 AMIt's not what Greyhawk was, but it can still be Greyhawk. Stagnation and regurgitation of what was without adding/changing anything is pointless.

God willing, they'll never let a fucking dumbass like you near it.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 23, 2024, 12:29:32 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 23, 2024, 10:49:03 AMIt's not what Greyhawk was, but it can still be Greyhawk. Stagnation and regurgitation of what was without adding/changing anything is pointless.

God willing, they'll never let a fucking dumbass like you near it.

Unfortunately, you're praying to an angry and vengeful god that you've clearly offended somehow, because that's exactly who's got their hands on Greyhawk right now.

Quote from: KindaMeh on May 23, 2024, 12:04:03 PMAlso, I'm calling it now, Wastri will be the setting's big bad or something, and responsible for humanocentric oppression either now or in the past. My tinfoil hat is on, but perhaps not undeservedly.

The Scarlet Brotherhood already has that one, and they're not gods. It takes mortal people to really be total shits.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 23, 2024, 12:29:32 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 23, 2024, 10:49:03 AMIt's not what Greyhawk was, but it can still be Greyhawk. Stagnation and regurgitation of what was without adding/changing anything is pointless.

God willing, they'll never let a fucking dumbass like you near it.

Personal attacks aside, I'll be as near to it as you are, which is to say I may or may not buy it and make personal use of it. Even if I do buy it, I am very likely to make changes that best suit the game I want to run. You have the same options.

Quote from: cavalier973 on May 23, 2024, 12:09:03 PMMystara is fantasy Cold War, with powerful empires in an uneasy cease-fire. There are a variety of nations, each with a theme, more or less. Adventure is found on the frontiers, to begin with.

In the Nentir Vale, there is no empire. There used to be an empire, and life was pretty good while it existed, but the Ruler of Ruin and his gnoll hordes destroyed it. Around a century ago, the vale, itself, was overrun by rampaging orcs.

Now, life is hard. Civilization barely survives in a few small towns and villages. The landscape is littered with abandoned manor houses, potentially filled with treasure, and certainly infested with monsters. Opportunities for adventure abound.

I don't know much about Greyhawk, but I get the impression it is similar to the Nentir Vale.

Using your own terms, Greyhawk is much more like fantasy Cold War (and eventually, fantasy World War). There are powerful nations with themes and alliances, before during, and after the wars. It never gets to the total breakdown of nations that Nentir Vale had, except in some isolated areas. Adventurers can fit in almost anywhere.

This of course refers to Greyhawk of 25+ years ago. If they choose to advance the timeline, perhaps it does become more like Nentir Vale.

In general, it sounds like they won't be doing much of anything to Greyhawk, because it will just be an example of worldbuilding in the DMG. So they'll use the map and have a few scattered details about different countries and points of interest. None of that is particularly political.

I think they'll keep on having side settings like Ravenloft, but keep the core as Faerun but not detailing it much, leaving it open as a place to stick adventures.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 23, 2024, 10:49:03 AM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 23, 2024, 03:10:44 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 23, 2024, 02:19:26 AMSure, it has been humanocentric, but a new version doesn't necessarily need to be beholden to that. If they move the timeline forward, a lot can change. It's even possible that humans are no longer the majority race.

Well then it's not Greyhawk, numbnuts.

It's not what Greyhawk was, but it can still be Greyhawk. Stagnation and regurgitation of what was without adding/changing anything is pointless.

I personally like reprints of old games and settings - and would be fine to have a version of original Greyhawk as a setting with current edition rules. Neither settings, nor rules, go bad per se. I've enjoyed playing the Royal Game of Ur - a board game that is 5000 years old.

That said, I also love lots of newer games - and the market is changing, so to be commercially relevant, some sort of update is generally required. Even the OSR tends to have a lot of updates, and often streamlining of rules, rather than just being reprints of old games.

Quote from: KindaMeh on May 23, 2024, 12:04:03 PMI feel like mechanically a lack of alignment would make being a cleric of good a no-go. Maybe they'll make clerics able to have no deity and operate off of ideals or something like Paladins, but with less mechanical restrictions or interfacing?

I don't see why ideals like Paladins means no deity. The ideals could represent the specific doctrines of a specific deity. That said, D&D has never had deity-specific cleric rules, and I doubt that WotC would want to change that. They prefer the rules to be generic across settings, just like TSR did.

Quote from: KindaMeh on May 23, 2024, 12:04:03 PMLikewise, if they bring in iconic characters of Greyhawk I can't see them not revising large sections of their lore to fit with modern woke ideology. Even the setting's focus on greed and adventure as the primary PC and NPC motivations seems unlikely to be left untouched. I can't see the churches of good folks not like Iuz and the like being set up as still a primary positive influence on the setting, likewise. Wherefore then is the setting still demonstrably Greyhawk, apart from a map and some names?

My copy of original World of Greyhawk (1980) has very little on churches or religion. It mentions three theocracies - the Archclericy of Veluna, the See of Medegia and the Theocracy of the Pale (which is noted as religiously intolerant). Secular states have virtually no mention of religion, though.

Gygax was a Christian and sometimes had pseudo-Christian elements in D&D, but he avoided putting Christianity per se into it. D&D and Greyhawk have thus always been officially pagan.

WotC has kept clerics as a core class, and had lots of good clerics, gods, and temples. I don't see that changing. I don't think pagan gods and clerics are controversial to the current D&D base.

Came across this piece of art that Wotc has previewed for one of their upcoming 50th anniversary products.

I just started laughing...

Quote from: Jaeger on May 23, 2024, 04:24:13 PMCame across this piece of art that Wotc has previewed for one of their upcoming 50th anniversary products.

I just started laughing...

Yeah not happy with that one. I have no issues with people being gay like you do, but I don't think that's a wise direction to take these two infamous NPCs.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 23, 2024, 04:30:14 PMRemains unclear if that was an official WOTC thing. Showed up on ENWorld, spread to Twitter. Could be real.

You just can't help yourself, ROTFL!!!

16:43 in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv2Rfvmvpkg

Literally pulled from the adventure. (And they are already retconning lore...)

The laughter continues...

Quote from: Jaeger on May 23, 2024, 04:49:31 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 23, 2024, 04:30:14 PMRemains unclear if that was an official WOTC thing. Showed up on ENWorld, spread to Twitter. Could be real.

You just can't help yourself, ROTFL!!!

16:43 in:
https://www.enworld.org/threads/vecna-eve-of-ruin-everything-you-need-to-know.702870/page-38

Literally pulled from the adventure.

The laughter continues...

Greetings!

Ahh, yes. Kas and Vecna, the infamous and powerful arch-villains, are now gay. The Woke Stupid Train just keeps rolling on!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2024, 05:11:04 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 23, 2024, 04:49:31 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 23, 2024, 04:30:14 PMRemains unclear if that was an official WOTC thing. Showed up on ENWorld, spread to Twitter. Could be real.

You just can't help yourself, ROTFL!!!

16:43 in:
https://www.enworld.org/threads/vecna-eve-of-ruin-everything-you-need-to-know.702870/page-38

Literally pulled from the adventure.

The laughter continues...

Greetings!

Ahh, yes. Kas and Vecna, the infamous and powerful arch-villains, are now gay. The Woke Stupid Train just keeps rolling on!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Needs a chick in it. It's already lame and gay.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 23, 2024, 10:49:03 AM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 23, 2024, 03:10:44 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 23, 2024, 02:19:26 AMSure, it has been humanocentric, but a new version doesn't necessarily need to be beholden to that. If they move the timeline forward, a lot can change. It's even possible that humans are no longer the majority race.

Well then it's not Greyhawk, numbnuts.

It's not what Greyhawk was, but it can still be Greyhawk. Stagnation and regurgitation of what was without adding/changing anything is pointless.

By any other name would something beloved shat upon not smell as bad?

(Apologies to Shakespeare)

Quote from: Jaeger on May 23, 2024, 04:49:31 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 23, 2024, 04:30:14 PMRemains unclear if that was an official WOTC thing. Showed up on ENWorld, spread to Twitter. Could be real.

You just can't help yourself, ROTFL!!!

16:43 in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv2Rfvmvpkg

Literally pulled from the adventure. (And they are already retconning lore...)

The laughter continues...

Sooooo.....

Only gay white males can become infamous undead villain gods.....

And they dare to call US homophobic....