Quote from: ForgottenF on May 19, 2024, 08:10:14 PMI can only speak for myself on this point, but the eventual quality of the OneD&D (or whatever they're calling it these days)

They are now insisting it will still be 5e.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 20, 2024, 12:57:20 AMAll you have are these weak personal attacks...and, of course, your delusional all-inclusive culture war narrative. But, if that narrative had any truth to it, how does it feel for you to be losing?

No. We have 24 years of wotc fucking things up. Pulling one dirty deal after another. Chasing agendas. Treating employees like dirt. Ripping off people and more.

They are opening with a 50th Aniversary book where they brag about how "problematic" OD&D is because the designers were "White and Male" in their own damn promotional video. Perkins has noted on video what he plans to go into the 5e DMG and junk. And he lies about this new edition not being a new edition.

The idea that they are not going to fuck this up is idiocy.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 19, 2024, 05:35:49 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 05:08:45 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 19, 2024, 03:30:47 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 02:29:09 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 18, 2024, 09:50:20 PM

Quote from: Votan on May 18, 2024, 03:28:27 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 17, 2024, 02:51:52 PMConsidering how much they despise Gygax and co for being "White and Male"... The odds of them handling Greyhawk with nay respect approaches zero.

Fair. But here is the thing, if it is done well then we can use the awesome stuff. If it is done poorly, it can be easily ignored. All real play settings must diverge from the cannon setting, anyway, because at some point the world events will be different or an area that the DM fleshed out will be done differently. So it is probably a net positive.

That's not a bad take on it, but you won't find too many here that are willing to give it a fair chance. Even if it is good, they'll have to reject it to follow their narrative.

Nice No Win Scenario you created, you get the Kobiyashi Maru Award for blaming the customer. Wear it with pride.

You're really going to try and claim to be one of their customers? My point is that most of the posters here have totally written them off and are not their customers, which you either missed or...well, you do have your narrative to stick to don't you?

Well, you are right, I am not one of their customers. I wrote off WotC back when 4E came out because they delivered a shit sandwich of a game and claimed it was filet mignon. Then when customers weren't buying the crap they produced, they blamed the poor taste and the grognardism of those same customers.

Kinda like what you are setting people up for here.

If you think that the Greyhawk material will be woke shit, for you it means that people with that opinion will be "following the narrative" because they can't possibly look at the past decade and a half of WotC pushing some of the lamest crap out under the aegis of the D&D IP with older material changed to conform to "modern audiences" and predict that this will be more of the same. Instead, it has to be because the customers who don't hand over their paychecks for more WotC crap must be brainwashed sheep.

Fuck off and go try to gaslight someone else with your bullshit.

You're not at all following what I'm saying. I'm not saying it will be good (though it might be), I'm saying that for many (possibly most) of the people on this board, it must be shit or else their little worlds will implode. That's not me gaslighting, that's the effects of the continuous bombardment of anti-WotC posts on this site (and, yes, elsewhere too).

I agreed with the poster that said he'd wait and see how the new Greyhawk material pans out. If it's good, great. If not, he'll ignore it. My agreement that he should make up his own mind isn't gaslighting at all...

But you go on with your narrative...

That bolded part is you continuing to try and gaslight....

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2024, 02:19:00 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 05:08:45 PMIf you think that the Greyhawk material will be woke shit, for you it means that people with that opinion will be "following the narrative" because they can't possibly look at the past decade and a half of WotC pushing some of the lamest crap out under the aegis of the D&D IP with older material changed to conform to "modern audiences" and predict that this will be more of the same. Instead, it has to be because the customers who don't hand over their paychecks for more WotC crap must be brainwashed sheep.

Your taste is totally valid - if you hated the past 15 years of D&D (4th ed and 5th ed), that's fine.

I recently wrapped up my D&D(5th) campaign of the last 1.5 years, and I'll be taking a break from D&D for a while. I haven't bought any WotC product for over a year, and I won't be getting the next edition.

---

However, having been on this board a while, I remember how RPGPundit consulted for and endorsed 5th edition - even including explicitly endorsing the LGBT inclusion paragraph in the Player's Handbook. He wasn't alone in this. D&D5 has been massively successful commercially and seen a huge increase in visibility of D&D in television, movies, and online. It is also the second longest-lived of D&D's twelve editions - except only AD&D1.

D&D5 book sales have dropped recently as the new edition was announced, but every edition has seen sales drop in the years after a new edition. Eight years after AD&D1 was released, TSR was bankrupt with massive debt and laid off 75% of its employees.

This doesn't obligate anyone to like 5th ed, but it makes it hard to claim that WotC is an objective failure that hates its players. I think it's a soulless money-grubbing corporation, but that's true of most big companies eventually.

If you think that the only reason that D&D book sales has dropped is because a new edition is coming out and not that the OGL has been threatened by WotC, that the latest modules were pandering crap (magical coffee shop? WTF?), that what was a game is now being pushed as a lifestyle brand (D&D fashion and shoes anybody?), that the company holding the IP views its customers as just paychecks to be looted, that any legacy product must be changed for "modern audiences" (that iconic male fighter facing a dragon was actually a woman! tits!), and is willing to send thugs to reviewers homes (Pinkertons for MtG!); then you are not just being willfully ignorant, but gaslighting as much as HippyDerp is trying to. Fuck off already.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 19, 2024, 08:10:14 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 19, 2024, 05:35:49 PMI'm saying that for many (possibly most) of the people on this board, it must be shit or else their little worlds will implode. That's not me gaslighting, that's the effects of the continuous bombardment of anti-WotC posts on this site (and, yes, elsewhere too).

I can only speak for myself on this point, but the eventual quality of the OneD&D (or whatever they're calling it these days) DMG is largely moot to me. WOTC is one of two companies (along with Disney) where I have chosen to no longer give them any of my money, as a point of principle. In both cases, that is due to repeated acts of cultural vandalism and willful disrespect of the artistic works they hold the license to. Separate to the moral point, I also have no interest in either 5th edition or a prospective new edition of D&D.

Let's imagine the best case scenario, here: a competent, complete and tonally faithful explication of the Greyhawk setting, with the thoroughness and polish of the 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book. Let's go a step further and say that it's attached to a new edition of D&D so brilliantly designed that it instantly makes obsolete all the prior editions, the OSR, and every other fantasy RPG on the market. I would be surprised, to say the least, but it would only be a step in the right direction. It'd take several years of sensible, high quality products, sold at fair prices, and in the absence of slimy anti-consumer practices to get WOTC off of my personal shit-list.

Is all of that possible? Yes. Would I like to see it happen? Yes, actually. Unlike some other posters, WOTC is a company I used to like. But anyone whose brain is capable of pattern recognition wouldn't be holding their breath waiting for it.

Greetings!

I agree, ForgottenF!

I am certainly not holding my breath. I don't really care at all what WOTC does. Being forsworn from them as a customer and fan, it is liberating, but also melancholy to have thus gained a feeling of emotional distance. I have moved on, gaming with OSR games, and the 5E set that I already own.

Whatever WOTC does currently or in the future, to me, is no longer relevant. I refuse to support a company that hates me, and the long-standing traditions of the game. Other companies, other rule sets, have gone on to carry that banner faithfully, and with genuine respect, loyalty, and talent.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 05:08:45 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 19, 2024, 03:30:47 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 02:29:09 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 18, 2024, 09:50:20 PM

Quote from: Votan on May 18, 2024, 03:28:27 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 17, 2024, 02:51:52 PMConsidering how much they despise Gygax and co for being "White and Male"... The odds of them handling Greyhawk with nay respect approaches zero.

Fair. But here is the thing, if it is done well then we can use the awesome stuff. If it is done poorly, it can be easily ignored. All real play settings must diverge from the cannon setting, anyway, because at some point the world events will be different or an area that the DM fleshed out will be done differently. So it is probably a net positive.

That's not a bad take on it, but you won't find too many here that are willing to give it a fair chance. Even if it is good, they'll have to reject it to follow their narrative.

Nice No Win Scenario you created, you get the Kobiyashi Maru Award for blaming the customer. Wear it with pride.

You're really going to try and claim to be one of their customers? My point is that most of the posters here have totally written them off and are not their customers, which you either missed or...well, you do have your narrative to stick to don't you?

Well, you are right, I am not one of their customers. I wrote off WotC back when 4E came out because they delivered a shit sandwich of a game and claimed it was filet mignon. Then when customers weren't buying the crap they produced, they blamed the poor taste and the grognardism of those same customers.

Kinda like what you are setting people up for here.

If you think that the Greyhawk material will be woke shit, for you it means that people with that opinion will be "following the narrative" because they can't possibly look at the past decade and a half of WotC pushing some of the lamest crap out under the aegis of the D&D IP with older material changed to conform to "modern audiences" and predict that this will be more of the same. Instead, it has to be because the customers who don't hand over their paychecks for more WotC crap must be brainwashed sheep.

Fuck off and go try to gaslight someone else with your bullshit.

Greetings!

Good stuff, Jeff! Yeah, 4E was fucking BS. I refused to buy any of 4E, or play that dogshit set of game books.

I returned to 5E D&D, because I felt that the developers at WOTC had turned their backs on the BS of 4E, and seemed to have a kind of epiphany, in seeking to return the D&D game to more or less its cherished "Old School" roots. Most of my gaming friends also agreed, and were all eager to embrace 5E and give WOTC a second chance after the disaster of 4E. Having design consultants like RPG Pundit, Zak S, S. John Ross, and others, that I all knew and was familiar with their quality, likewise inspired my hope and a renewed sense of faith.

The early years of 5E were solid, and good. My only major complaints of the early 5E was the internal dynamic of promoting the Player Characters as being more like superheroes than medieval fantasy champions. Gradually, however, as you well know my friend, the Woke morons gained ever more control within the halls of WOTC, and the stupid train started rolling. The shitty, Woke books, the anti-White racism, the terrible tweets and other social media posts, the fucked up interviews, culminating with WOTC's attempt at reneging on the OGL, well, that was the proverbial "Straw that Broke the Camel's Back" for myself.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I can't say that I ever particularly cared about Greyhawk or found it's flavor of kitchen sink D&D fantasy to be all that different from Forgotten Realms at the table.  The gods had different names but that didn't actually make any difference in play.  I used Greyhawk back in the 1st edition AD&D days because that's what I had.  Later, while running 2nd edition AD&D, I switched to Forgotten Realms because that's what a lot of the source material was for.  I also used other settings like Dark Sun but FR was my default setting because you could run any sort of D&D campaign somewhere in it.  You can do the same in Greyhawk.  They will probably mess up Greyhawk and I just don't care.       

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 19, 2024, 11:19:53 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 19, 2024, 08:10:14 PMBut anyone whose brain is capable of pattern recognition...

Well, that just ruled out HappyDerp.  His argument basically involves completely ignoring the entire history of WotC.  Predictions based on past behavior are "narratives" to this buffoon.

Imagine that your girlfriend had cheated on you six or seven times.  She tells you she's going out to a bar with friends and doesn't come home that night.  HappyDerp would be telling you that there was no reason to be suspicious.  Any apprehension over her behavior is just you trying to justify a "narrative." 

Really, you shouldn't even dignify his statements with a response, because he's just gaslighting everyone.  He's accusing others of inventing some kind of narrative when that's exactly what he's doing.  The woke always project...

Greetings!

Preach On, my friend!

Yeah, it is strange that HappyDerp claims that people here are somehow "following a narrative." WTF? You, myself, hell, many of the people here have been fans and customers of WOTC *For Decades*. Over the last several years, especially, we have all witnessed the constant erosion of WOTC as they wallow further into shit and the Stupid Train. We have all more or less gradually arrived at the place of telling WOTC to go fuck themselves. And, indeed, as WOTC is the D&D brand flagship, I know that many of us here have not been overjoyed to face up to the harsh truth that WOTC is a shitty, terrible company. However, one by one, most of us here have all gradually gotten off the WOTC train. WOTC is such a corrupt, terrible company, most of us can clearly see it, and have done so for some time now.

That does not seem to be a "Narrative' to me, as we have all purchased most of the game books. We have seen the videos, the social media screen caps, the terrible interviews with these jackasses spewing anti-White racism, and eagerly and openly embracing and celebrating corruption and degeneracy within the game.

We have all seen more than enough BS from WOTC.

Woke fucking morons though, love what WOTC is doing. The Woke morons celebrate the Stupid Train.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Omega on May 20, 2024, 03:09:48 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 20, 2024, 12:57:20 AMAll you have are these weak personal attacks...and, of course, your delusional all-inclusive culture war narrative. But, if that narrative had any truth to it, how does it feel for you to be losing?

No. We have 24 years of wotc fucking things up. Pulling one dirty deal after another. Chasing agendas. Treating employees like dirt. Ripping off people and more.

They are opening with a 50th Aniversary book where they brag about how "problematic" OD&D is because the designers were "White and Male" in their own damn promotional video. Perkins has noted on video what he plans to go into the 5e DMG and junk. And he lies about this new edition not being a new edition.

The idea that they are not going to fuck this up is idiocy.

Greetings!

Yep! Very true, Omega!

It is sad seeing the Stupid Train that WOTC has been on. Eventually, though, most of us have reached a point where enough is enough. Fuck 'em, you know? And I have enjoyed 5E, especially the early years. I have defended 5E from the haters, as well. Unfortunately, though, as you well note, year by year, episode after episode, WOTC has become more Woke and more fucking stupid and terrible. So, yeah. Fuck them. They can wallow in napalm now.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I have been a fan of Greyhawk since I got the gold box back in the 1980s. I have absolutely zero faith that WotC won't fuck it up. They already did so in 3E by taking what was a post-apocalyptic Swords & Sorcery setting, with a dash of High Fantasy, and turn it upside down. It wasn't JUST the ridiculous inflation of population of the Flanaess, but as time went on they kept shitting on the setting's lore, like the merging of Natasha the Dark, Tasha the Laughing Mage and The Witch-Queen of Perrenland Iggwilv instead of having 3 separate and distinctive characters (as they had always been). Then claiming 'its always been that way' when it was really them cribbing a piss poor, badly researched, low effort and moronic fanfic from the CanonFire! boards.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 20, 2024, 11:32:04 AMThen claiming 'its always been that way' when it was really them cribbing a piss poor, badly researched, low effort and moronic fanfic from the CanonFire! boards.

Please expound on this...I am curious.

Quote from: Brad on May 20, 2024, 11:43:00 AMPlease expound on this...I am curious.

One of the GreyTalk (not CanonFire!, sorry, misspoke) contributors wrote a piece wherein he merged the 3 different wizards. I don't have the original thread but chatdemon at CanonFire! at least attempted to do a follow up that corrected Tasha the Grinning Mage (a relative of Zagig Yragerne, but he screwed up by making her her only 9th lvl whereas her tome The Lore of Subtle Communication, from Dragon #82, has Legend Lore in it, meaning she has to 12th lvl at minimum).

Natasha the Dark was a dual-classed Illusionist/Mage 7th/15th lvl from the Roger E. Moore adventure The Dancing Hut in Dragon #83. Natasha the Dark's spellbook isn't listed and if Moore (who didn't create Tasha, Gygax did) had intended for them to be the same, he would have put SOMETHING in the adventure to denote that, specifically Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter.

Iggwilv is (according to Gygax) at least 23rd lvl and because of her Demonomicon of Iggwilv includes Henley's Digit Disruption (a 7th lvl Cleric spell), she has to be at least a 16th lvl Cleric. We know she's also a Mage because the Demonomicon has Mage spells, the highest of which is Banishment which is an 8th lvl spell, so she has to be at minimum a 16th lvl Mage as well. Iggwilv was inspired by the Finnish crone Louhi. Further, in the 2nd Gord the Rogue novel, which was published by TSR, we get a description of Iggwilv's 'original' non-crone form:

'Iggwilv shook her head. "Not so fast, my prodigal. Is that any way for a devoted son to speak to his Dear Mother?" Even as she uttered this admonition, the ancient crone, one who had appeared a parody of every child's nightmare of a wicked witch, changed. Her features flowed and changed as her body grew and straightened. Scraggly, gray locks became flowing tresses of hair like spun gold, and face and form matched the radiance of this golden head.' - Artifact of Evil, p. 263

Given Iggwilv's power, and the fact she is forbidden from interfering in the mortal realm (WG6: Isle of the Ape), she would have to be a Lesser Goddess in status by CY576. Only those of that rank and higher cannot interact directly with mortals other than granting spells. This fits with her being inspired by Louhi. It also helps to explain how her son, Iuz the Old, came by his semi-divine status (he likely followed her path to achieve demigod status). Also, given the timescales necessary to do that, Iggwilv is WAY older than Zagyg and could never have been his apprentice. 

Natasha the Dark, on the other hand, is described thusly: 'A beautiful woman with alabaster skin and smoky black hair'.

Tasha, Natasha the Dark and Iggwilv all have to be different people simply from the fact Iggwilv and Natasha aren't even the same kind of Dual-classed Mages. Furthermore, if Natasha the Dark was Tasha the Grinning Mage, why wouldn't she have the spell Tasha was most famous for creating?

The worst part of this? Asshole leftard scum started dragging Gygax on Twitter after Tasha's Cauldron of Everything was published because of the backstory of how Tasha the Grinning Mage came to exist. Namely, a young girl wrote a letter to Gary (in crayon) wanting a spell to make her enemies laugh. Thus he created Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter. But the assholes at WotC, following through on linking Tasha, Iggwilv and Natasha couldn't help but increase the sleaze factor because Natasha the Dark was drawn in very skimpy clothing.

The whole debacle is a lazy, nonsensical and creatively bankrupt attempt to do the least work possible and in the process fuck up 1 of the most powerful and interesting enemies in Greyhawk (Iggwilv) as well as do absolutely nothing with Natasha the Dark, let alone Tasha the Grinning Mage. And the cherry on top of the shit sundae is the claim that Tasha and Natasha HAVE to be the same because there can't be 2 famous Mages with names so similar in Greyhawk.

The only other thing is that there is a portrait in Rob Kuntz's The Original Bottle City of Ashat the Laughing Witch, so perhaps there was a Tasha who was a companion of Zagig at some point.

Quote from: SHARK on May 20, 2024, 07:16:57 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 05:08:45 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 19, 2024, 03:30:47 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 02:29:09 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 18, 2024, 09:50:20 PM

Quote from: Votan on May 18, 2024, 03:28:27 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 17, 2024, 02:51:52 PMConsidering how much they despise Gygax and co for being "White and Male"... The odds of them handling Greyhawk with nay respect approaches zero.

Fair. But here is the thing, if it is done well then we can use the awesome stuff. If it is done poorly, it can be easily ignored. All real play settings must diverge from the cannon setting, anyway, because at some point the world events will be different or an area that the DM fleshed out will be done differently. So it is probably a net positive.

That's not a bad take on it, but you won't find too many here that are willing to give it a fair chance. Even if it is good, they'll have to reject it to follow their narrative.

Nice No Win Scenario you created, you get the Kobiyashi Maru Award for blaming the customer. Wear it with pride.

You're really going to try and claim to be one of their customers? My point is that most of the posters here have totally written them off and are not their customers, which you either missed or...well, you do have your narrative to stick to don't you?

Well, you are right, I am not one of their customers. I wrote off WotC back when 4E came out because they delivered a shit sandwich of a game and claimed it was filet mignon. Then when customers weren't buying the crap they produced, they blamed the poor taste and the grognardism of those same customers.

Kinda like what you are setting people up for here.

If you think that the Greyhawk material will be woke shit, for you it means that people with that opinion will be "following the narrative" because they can't possibly look at the past decade and a half of WotC pushing some of the lamest crap out under the aegis of the D&D IP with older material changed to conform to "modern audiences" and predict that this will be more of the same. Instead, it has to be because the customers who don't hand over their paychecks for more WotC crap must be brainwashed sheep.

Fuck off and go try to gaslight someone else with your bullshit.

Greetings!

Good stuff, Jeff! Yeah, 4E was fucking BS. I refused to buy any of 4E, or play that dogshit set of game books.

I returned to 5E D&D, because I felt that the developers at WOTC had turned their backs on the BS of 4E, and seemed to have a kind of epiphany, in seeking to return the D&D game to more or less its cherished "Old School" roots. Most of my gaming friends also agreed, and were all eager to embrace 5E and give WOTC a second chance after the disaster of 4E. Having design consultants like RPG Pundit, Zak S, S. John Ross, and others, that I all knew and was familiar with their quality, likewise inspired my hope and a renewed sense of faith.

The early years of 5E were solid, and good. My only major complaints of the early 5E was the internal dynamic of promoting the Player Characters as being more like superheroes than medieval fantasy champions. Gradually, however, as you well know my friend, the Woke morons gained ever more control within the halls of WOTC, and the stupid train started rolling. The shitty, Woke books, the anti-White racism, the terrible tweets and other social media posts, the fucked up interviews, culminating with WOTC's attempt at reneging on the OGL, well, that was the proverbial "Straw that Broke the Camel's Back" for myself.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey, SHARK!

I was hopeful during the 5E play test. I was even willing to overcome my dislike of the short rest/long rest stuff in the rules. Then I just took a hard look at how toxic and woke the organized play program of DnD was, and how WotC encouraged that toxicity. I also remembered the huge amount of money I had invested in 3.x (over $8000) that WotC wanted me to ignore in favor of 4E, which would have to have been ignored in favor of 5E. I can't afford to throw out the monetary equivalent of a newer used car every eight year just to chase my hobby.  The clusterfuck cavalcade by WotC which followed is a justification of my decision IMHO.

I absolutely love Traveller, but even My Favorite Game has got some fuck-ups in its past that I won't buy.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 20, 2024, 04:08:25 AMIf you think that the only reason that D&D book sales has dropped is because a new edition is coming out and not that the OGL has been threatened by WotC,

that the latest modules were pandering crap (magical coffee shop? WTF?),

that what was a game is now being pushed as a lifestyle brand (D&D fashion and shoes anybody?)

1: Sales have dropped for alot of reasons. The OGL blowup is a footnote now. Poor product is a more telling problem.

2: There is no such module other than what ammounts to a fan made one by one of the staff. Theres alot worse on DM's Guild and people think ALL of that is "official". The problem is sadly more mundane. wotc writers are fucking lazy and cant be dicked to actually do the job they were hired for. Graduates from the  White Wolf school of failure. "oh we didnt bother to write that rule. The players will do it for us!"

3: This again? No. wotc is not pushing D&D as a lifestyle. They are too incompetent for that. Fan made mercandise and 3rd party items have been around since the TSR days. D&D WOODBURNING SET? D&D CANDY? O-M-G!!! TSR is for making teh Lifestylez!!!111!!!. wotc has done just short of nothing aside from trying to monetize fan crafts.

x: wotc has put out one lacklustre product after another Spelljanner bombed, barely anyone is talking about Planescape, the last few modules aside from Wild Beyond the Witchlight have been messes and even Witchlight needs work because the writers couldnt be dicked to do their job. Then there's Phandelver and Below which is so fucking incoherent I'm surprised anyones actually been able to run it.

And now apparently they want to mess with D&D Beyond and just this month removed the ability to buy single items from a book instead of the whole book. This on top of them removing older books from the shop. Rumor is that next to go will be the ability to post and share your own works.

Add on an unwanted new edition that wotc insists is really real not a new edition! A new edition that looks to totally overhaul things and relegate the DM to storytelling slaves.

Is it any wonder sales are down?

Quote from: SHARK on May 20, 2024, 07:38:18 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 20, 2024, 03:09:48 AMNo. We have 24 years of wotc fucking things up. Pulling one dirty deal after another. Chasing agendas. Treating employees like dirt. Ripping off people and more.

It is sad seeing the Stupid Train that WOTC has been on. Eventually, though, most of us have reached a point where enough is enough. Fuck 'em, you know? And I have enjoyed 5E, especially the early years. I have defended 5E from the haters, as well. Unfortunately, though, as you well note, year by year, episode after episode, WOTC has become more Woke and more fucking stupid and terrible.

I don't think you're actually agreeing. Omega said that WotC have been fucking up for 24 years (since 3E launched). jeff37923 said that WotC has been fucking up for 15 years (since the launch of 4E). You're only saying that WotC has been getting more stupid the past 5-6 years.

Personally, I liked the 5E core - it's my favorite edition for core rules. However, I hated the early 5E adventures, and was mixed about supplements.

I'd been lukewarm to WotC for a while, though. I remember warning about the OGL back in 2000 -- noting that WotC was actually claiming more than what copyright gave them a right to. I gave the 3E rules a fair shot - reading and breaking down the rules, and played in a short campaign. But I quit it by 2003, completely ignored 3.5E and only played a bit of 4E because my nephews wanted to play.

---

To SHARK - do you think you were hoodwinked earlier and that WotC was terrible all along and you just didn't see? Or do you stand by your assessment of the 5E core and early books?