Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on May 17, 2024, 10:44:20 AMI'd always assumed Greyhawk was too "problematic" for Wizards to begin with. I won't be surprised if the setting gets altered beyond recognition.

Out of curiosity, why? Greyhawk is probably the one I'm least familiar with out of the high-profile D&D settings, but it never seemed to be any edgier than Forgotten Realms. 

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 18, 2024, 09:50:20 PM

Quote from: Votan on May 18, 2024, 03:28:27 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 17, 2024, 02:51:52 PMConsidering how much they despise Gygax and co for being "White and Male"... The odds of them handling Greyhawk with nay respect approaches zero.

Fair. But here is the thing, if it is done well then we can use the awesome stuff. If it is done poorly, it can be easily ignored. All real play settings must diverge from the cannon setting, anyway, because at some point the world events will be different or an area that the DM fleshed out will be done differently. So it is probably a net positive.

That's not a bad take on it, but you won't find too many here that are willing to give it a fair chance. Even if it is good, they'll have to reject it to follow their narrative.

Nice No Win Scenario you created, you get the Kobiyashi Maru Award for blaming the customer. Wear it with pride.

Is it possible; that WOTC will try to turn Greyhawk, into Gayhawk?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 02:29:09 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 18, 2024, 09:50:20 PM

Quote from: Votan on May 18, 2024, 03:28:27 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 17, 2024, 02:51:52 PMConsidering how much they despise Gygax and co for being "White and Male"... The odds of them handling Greyhawk with nay respect approaches zero.

Fair. But here is the thing, if it is done well then we can use the awesome stuff. If it is done poorly, it can be easily ignored. All real play settings must diverge from the cannon setting, anyway, because at some point the world events will be different or an area that the DM fleshed out will be done differently. So it is probably a net positive.

That's not a bad take on it, but you won't find too many here that are willing to give it a fair chance. Even if it is good, they'll have to reject it to follow their narrative.

Nice No Win Scenario you created, you get the Kobiyashi Maru Award for blaming the customer. Wear it with pride.

You're really going to try and claim to be one of their customers? My point is that most of the posters here have totally written them off and are not their customers, which you either missed or...well, you do have your narrative to stick to don't you?

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 19, 2024, 03:30:47 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 02:29:09 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 18, 2024, 09:50:20 PM

Quote from: Votan on May 18, 2024, 03:28:27 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 17, 2024, 02:51:52 PMConsidering how much they despise Gygax and co for being "White and Male"... The odds of them handling Greyhawk with nay respect approaches zero.

Fair. But here is the thing, if it is done well then we can use the awesome stuff. If it is done poorly, it can be easily ignored. All real play settings must diverge from the cannon setting, anyway, because at some point the world events will be different or an area that the DM fleshed out will be done differently. So it is probably a net positive.

That's not a bad take on it, but you won't find too many here that are willing to give it a fair chance. Even if it is good, they'll have to reject it to follow their narrative.

Nice No Win Scenario you created, you get the Kobiyashi Maru Award for blaming the customer. Wear it with pride.

You're really going to try and claim to be one of their customers? My point is that most of the posters here have totally written them off and are not their customers, which you either missed or...well, you do have your narrative to stick to don't you?

Well, you are right, I am not one of their customers. I wrote off WotC back when 4E came out because they delivered a shit sandwich of a game and claimed it was filet mignon. Then when customers weren't buying the crap they produced, they blamed the poor taste and the grognardism of those same customers.

Kinda like what you are setting people up for here.

If you think that the Greyhawk material will be woke shit, for you it means that people with that opinion will be "following the narrative" because they can't possibly look at the past decade and a half of WotC pushing some of the lamest crap out under the aegis of the D&D IP with older material changed to conform to "modern audiences" and predict that this will be more of the same. Instead, it has to be because the customers who don't hand over their paychecks for more WotC crap must be brainwashed sheep.

Fuck off and go try to gaslight someone else with your bullshit.

I chose my path. That was with Kobold Press instead of WotC. I supported Tales Of The Valiant. And I'm not disappointed with what I have gotten so far.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 05:08:45 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 19, 2024, 03:30:47 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 02:29:09 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 18, 2024, 09:50:20 PM

Quote from: Votan on May 18, 2024, 03:28:27 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 17, 2024, 02:51:52 PMConsidering how much they despise Gygax and co for being "White and Male"... The odds of them handling Greyhawk with nay respect approaches zero.

Fair. But here is the thing, if it is done well then we can use the awesome stuff. If it is done poorly, it can be easily ignored. All real play settings must diverge from the cannon setting, anyway, because at some point the world events will be different or an area that the DM fleshed out will be done differently. So it is probably a net positive.

That's not a bad take on it, but you won't find too many here that are willing to give it a fair chance. Even if it is good, they'll have to reject it to follow their narrative.

Nice No Win Scenario you created, you get the Kobiyashi Maru Award for blaming the customer. Wear it with pride.

You're really going to try and claim to be one of their customers? My point is that most of the posters here have totally written them off and are not their customers, which you either missed or...well, you do have your narrative to stick to don't you?

Well, you are right, I am not one of their customers. I wrote off WotC back when 4E came out because they delivered a shit sandwich of a game and claimed it was filet mignon. Then when customers weren't buying the crap they produced, they blamed the poor taste and the grognardism of those same customers.

Kinda like what you are setting people up for here.

If you think that the Greyhawk material will be woke shit, for you it means that people with that opinion will be "following the narrative" because they can't possibly look at the past decade and a half of WotC pushing some of the lamest crap out under the aegis of the D&D IP with older material changed to conform to "modern audiences" and predict that this will be more of the same. Instead, it has to be because the customers who don't hand over their paychecks for more WotC crap must be brainwashed sheep.

Fuck off and go try to gaslight someone else with your bullshit.

You're not at all following what I'm saying. I'm not saying it will be good (though it might be), I'm saying that for many (possibly most) of the people on this board, it must be shit or else their little worlds will implode. That's not me gaslighting, that's the effects of the continuous bombardment of anti-WotC posts on this site (and, yes, elsewhere too).

I agreed with the poster that said he'd wait and see how the new Greyhawk material pans out. If it's good, great. If not, he'll ignore it. My agreement that he should make up his own mind isn't gaslighting at all...

But you go on with your narrative...

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 18, 2024, 09:50:20 PM

Quote from: Votan on May 18, 2024, 03:28:27 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 17, 2024, 02:51:52 PMConsidering how much they despise Gygax and co for being "White and Male"... The odds of them handling Greyhawk with nay respect approaches zero.

Fair. But here is the thing, if it is done well then we can use the awesome stuff. If it is done poorly, it can be easily ignored. All real play settings must diverge from the cannon setting, anyway, because at some point the world events will be different or an area that the DM fleshed out will be done differently. So it is probably a net positive.

That's not a bad take on it, but you won't find too many here that are willing to give it a fair chance. Even if it is good, they'll have to reject it to follow their narrative.

That is because wotc can not do anything right. They are compelled to fuck it up some how some way.

And if by miracle they do it right. They are then doubly compelled to fuck it up.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 19, 2024, 01:41:21 PM

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on May 17, 2024, 10:44:20 AMI'd always assumed Greyhawk was too "problematic" for Wizards to begin with. I won't be surprised if the setting gets altered beyond recognition.

Out of curiosity, why? Greyhawk is probably the one I'm least familiar with out of the high-profile D&D settings, but it never seemed to be any edgier than Forgotten Realms. 

If anything I am surprised they did not latch onto Greyhawk sooner. One of the prominent races is dark skinned and a few others are too. Mediterranean and more depending on the edition. But the woke screeched that "Thats not POC!" because you are only POC or a minority when it is convenient to their narrative today.

Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2024, 05:52:05 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 18, 2024, 09:50:20 PM

Quote from: Votan on May 18, 2024, 03:28:27 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 17, 2024, 02:51:52 PMConsidering how much they despise Gygax and co for being "White and Male"... The odds of them handling Greyhawk with nay respect approaches zero.

Fair. But here is the thing, if it is done well then we can use the awesome stuff. If it is done poorly, it can be easily ignored. All real play settings must diverge from the cannon setting, anyway, because at some point the world events will be different or an area that the DM fleshed out will be done differently. So it is probably a net positive.

That's not a bad take on it, but you won't find too many here that are willing to give it a fair chance. Even if it is good, they'll have to reject it to follow their narrative.

That is because wotc can not do anything right. They are compelled to fuck it up some how some way.

And if by miracle they do it right. They are then doubly compelled to fuck it up.

Thank you for supporting my point.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 19, 2024, 05:35:49 PMI'm saying that for many (possibly most) of the people on this board, it must be shit or else their little worlds will implode. That's not me gaslighting, that's the effects of the continuous bombardment of anti-WotC posts on this site (and, yes, elsewhere too).

I can only speak for myself on this point, but the eventual quality of the OneD&D (or whatever they're calling it these days) DMG is largely moot to me. WOTC is one of two companies (along with Disney) where I have chosen to no longer give them any of my money, as a point of principle. In both cases, that is due to repeated acts of cultural vandalism and willful disrespect of the artistic works they hold the license to. Separate to the moral point, I also have no interest in either 5th edition or a prospective new edition of D&D.

Let's imagine the best case scenario, here: a competent, complete and tonally faithful explication of the Greyhawk setting, with the thoroughness and polish of the 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book. Let's go a step further and say that it's attached to a new edition of D&D so brilliantly designed that it instantly makes obsolete all the prior editions, the OSR, and every other fantasy RPG on the market. I would be surprised, to say the least, but it would only be a step in the right direction. It'd take several years of sensible, high quality products, sold at fair prices, and in the absence of slimy anti-consumer practices to get WOTC off of my personal shit-list.

Is all of that possible? Yes. Would I like to see it happen? Yes, actually. Unlike some other posters, WOTC is a company I used to like. But anyone whose brain is capable of pattern recognition wouldn't be holding their breath waiting for it.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 19, 2024, 08:10:14 PMBut anyone whose brain is capable of pattern recognition...

Well, that just ruled out HappyDerp.  His argument basically involves completely ignoring the entire history of WotC.  Predictions based on past behavior are "narratives" to this buffoon.

Imagine that your girlfriend had cheated on you six or seven times.  She tells you she's going out to a bar with friends and doesn't come home that night.  HappyDerp would be telling you that there was no reason to be suspicious.  Any apprehension over her behavior is just you trying to justify a "narrative." 

Really, you shouldn't even dignify his statements with a response, because he's just gaslighting everyone.  He's accusing others of inventing some kind of narrative when that's exactly what he's doing.  The woke always project...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 19, 2024, 11:19:53 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 19, 2024, 08:10:14 PMBut anyone whose brain is capable of pattern recognition...

Well, that just ruled out HappyDerp.  His argument basically involves completely ignoring the entire history of WotC.  Predictions based on past behavior are "narratives" to this buffoon.

Imagine that your girlfriend had cheated on you six or seven times.  She tells you she's going out to a bar with friends and doesn't come home that night.  HappyDerp would be telling you that there was no reason to be suspicious.  Any apprehension over her behavior is just you trying to justify a "narrative." 

Really, you shouldn't even dignify his statements with a response, because he's just gaslighting everyone.  He's accusing others of inventing some kind of narrative when that's exactly what he's doing.  The woke always project...

All you have are these weak personal attacks...and, of course, your delusional all-inclusive culture war narrative. But, if that narrative had any truth to it, how does it feel for you to be losing?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2024, 05:08:45 PMIf you think that the Greyhawk material will be woke shit, for you it means that people with that opinion will be "following the narrative" because they can't possibly look at the past decade and a half of WotC pushing some of the lamest crap out under the aegis of the D&D IP with older material changed to conform to "modern audiences" and predict that this will be more of the same. Instead, it has to be because the customers who don't hand over their paychecks for more WotC crap must be brainwashed sheep.

Your taste is totally valid - if you hated the past 15 years of D&D (4th ed and 5th ed), that's fine.

I recently wrapped up my D&D(5th) campaign of the last 1.5 years, and I'll be taking a break from D&D for a while. I haven't bought any WotC product for over a year, and I won't be getting the next edition.

---

However, having been on this board a while, I remember how RPGPundit consulted for and endorsed 5th edition - even including explicitly endorsing the LGBT inclusion paragraph in the Player's Handbook. He wasn't alone in this. D&D5 has been massively successful commercially and seen a huge increase in visibility of D&D in television, movies, and online. It is also the second longest-lived of D&D's twelve editions - except only AD&D1.

D&D5 book sales have dropped recently as the new edition was announced, but every edition has seen sales drop in the years after a new edition. Eight years after AD&D1 was released, TSR was bankrupt with massive debt and laid off 75% of its employees.

This doesn't obligate anyone to like 5th ed, but it makes it hard to claim that WotC is an objective failure that hates its players. I think it's a soulless money-grubbing corporation, but that's true of most big companies eventually.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 19, 2024, 07:17:25 PMThank you for supporting my point.

Thank you for proving mine.