Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:39:02 PM

Quote from: BadApple on May 13, 2024, 05:25:03 AM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMInteresting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

In Christian tradition, any use of magic is considered a contract with the devil.  There were no officially recognized court mages in Christian European nations.  This is also true in Islamic countries.  There was no distinction between witches and great wizards, they were all sinners in need of burning.  Many western magic users practiced in secret, always afraid of getting caught.

That's completely wrong. For most of the middle ages there was no distinction between science and magic, and for that matter some of the humanities and medicine too. And there was no notion whatsoever that high magic was "of the devil". Folk magic was a bit different but for most of the middle ages the main view of both Church and Crown to folk magic was that most of it was just empty powerless superstition.

Only certain very specific forms of magical activities were either illegal or banned by the church or both. Poisoning and enchantment were illegal. Making pacts with demons (summoned by evocation) was banned by the church (note: binding demons was not). Doing divinations about the King without the King's express permission was illegal, as it was seen as somewhere between espionage and treason. The church forbade certain practices of Alchemy which required dead bodies, and these were typically outlawed by the crown too.  Magic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church. And trying to make gold using alchemy required a costly permit.

There were absolutely court magicians in various Christian nations. Dee was Queen Elizabeth's astrologer (and also one of the first spies in Her Majesty's Secret Service, with the code number "007"); he selected the date for her coronation using astrology, everyone knew it, and thought it was perfectly fine. He was later courted by various monarchs of Europe who wanted him to be THEIR court magician. Likewise Edward Kelley.

Of course, a MUCH bigger patron of magic than the royal crowns was the CHURCH. Countless monasteries engaged in the studies of "natural philosophy", including alchemy and all kinds of conjuring. There were popes who had practiced magic. And great saints; including Thomas Aquinas, who studied under the great and renowned philosopher-friar Albertus Magnus, who as not only a Dominican monk but also the CHAIR OF THEOLOGY at the University of Paris in the 1240s.

So you're just unbelievably, ridiculously, moronically wrong.

I fully acknowledge that my statement was way overly simplified.  The middle ages covers a lot of time, a lot of perspectives, and a lot of cultures.  Doctrinal interpretation was spotty at best and so was what magic was understood to be.

If you mean that magic is an umbrella term for anything that doesn't have an immediate corporal explanation, then you are correct.  However, there is a lot of distinction made between "divine mysteries" and "magic" from a Roman Catholic perspective.  The exploration of the first was encouraged while the second was heresy.  Natural philosophies were largely seen to fall into the divine mysteries camp.

I don't have access to my library right now so I can't give you references and I'm unable to give a counterpoint in the developed and intelligent way I would like to.  What I can say is that the Roman Catholic church has reclassified many fields of study but the principle idea that messing with the supernatural for personal gain is magic and heretical just like it was a thousand years ago.

Again, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 06:10:43 AMAgain, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Ok, but how common were magicians?

At a 30,000 foot overview, those practicing magic in Europe were very rare and almost always persecuted as heretics if they weren't doing it under the direct supervision of the church.  Sure, there are exceptions but there wasn't anything along the lines of "court wizard." 

Magic practitioners in Europe were about as rare and controlled as nuclear reactors are today in the US.  Sure, they exist but less than one percent of the population have actually seen one from the outside, let alone directly interacted with one.

Compare that to just about any other place in the world outside of Christendom or the Islamic Caliphates.  Practitioners of mystic arts were just part of the tapestry of daily life.  Particularly renowned magicians were elevated to regional or national level power in their field but shaman, medicine men, witch doctors, etc. were available to most people.

Double post, sorry.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:39:02 PMMagic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church.

Of all the laws mentioned, this is the only one with which I wasn't familiar. Do you have a source so I can read the law myself? The subject is of interest to me.

Quote from: BadApple on May 16, 2024, 01:51:51 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 06:10:43 AMAgain, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Ok, but how common were magicians?

At a 30,000 foot overview, those practicing magic in Europe were very rare and almost always persecuted as heretics if they weren't doing it under the direct supervision of the church.  Sure, there are exceptions but there wasn't anything along the lines of "court wizard." 

Magic practitioners in Europe were about as rare and controlled as nuclear reactors are today in the US.  Sure, they exist but less than one percent of the population have actually seen one from the outside, let alone directly interacted with one.

Compare that to just about any other place in the world outside of Christendom or the Islamic Caliphates.  Practitioners of mystic arts were just part of the tapestry of daily life.  Particularly renowned magicians were elevated to regional or national level power in their field but shaman, medicine men, witch doctors, etc. were available to most people.

The answer to this depends on how one defines magicians. For all of the middle ages, most peasant villages had some kind of wise man or cunning woman, who did folk magic. They were generally valued by the people; and contrary to the claims of some modern wiccans or whatever, they absolutely considered themselves to be Christians (at least after the very earliest part of the middle ages).

When it comes to "high magic", the situation is somewhat different. The fall of Rome meant that learning largely collapsed in most of Europe, and so there were relatively few magicians during the dark ages and early middle ages on the Christian side of things (of course, pagan magicians abounded in pagan cultures). Alongside the rise of the monasteries, there was a slow process of rediscovery of knowledge, and magic included among these. In the Early middle ages the vast majority of non-folk magicians were monks or priests. This led to a large number of the aristocracy having advisors that were skilled in at least some magical practices. It's said that in the court of Louis the Pious, every great nobleman had a personal astrologer, many of whom were said to be Irish monks, and of course were also at the same time employed as general learned men and chroniclers. This type of magic, having a kind of legitimacy from the ancient world, was seen completely different from the "pagan" folk practices of the peasantry. What was forbidden by law was "maleificium", curses and other kinds of evil magic.

And of course, there were more magicians in the Byzantine empire and in Islamic Spain. The Pope Sylvester II first learned magic while in Catalonia.

Around the 13th century, the University began to appear as a separate institution to that of the Monasteries, a place of secular learning. Once again, a great many scholars engaged in the study and practice of magic. And while it is true that not every court had some kind of official magician, a great many had a learned man who was prized for having magic as one of his talents. That's why John Dee was courted throughout Europe; he was one of the most famous men in the Christian world and everyone wanted him.

Quote from: WERDNA on May 16, 2024, 04:23:22 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:39:02 PMMagic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church.

Of all the laws mentioned, this is the only one with which I wasn't familiar. Do you have a source so I can read the law myself? The subject is of interest to me.

Hmm, I'm trying to find it but my searching ability is not going so well (google's 2024 algorithms focus so much on the banal its frustrating). It is within the realm of possibility that I could be remembering this wrong, and that it was not something that the Vatican itself made a statement about but was only condemned at certain times by local secular or religious authorities. I'm not sure now.

Quote from: BadApple on May 16, 2024, 01:51:51 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 06:10:43 AMAgain, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Ok, but how common were magicians?

At a 30,000 foot overview, those practicing magic in Europe were very rare and almost always persecuted as heretics if they weren't doing it under the direct supervision of the church.  Sure, there are exceptions but there wasn't anything along the lines of "court wizard." 

Magic practitioners in Europe were about as rare and controlled as nuclear reactors are today in the US.  Sure, they exist but less than one percent of the population have actually seen one from the outside, let alone directly interacted with one.

Compare that to just about any other place in the world outside of Christendom or the Islamic Caliphates.  Practitioners of mystic arts were just part of the tapestry of daily life.  Particularly renowned magicians were elevated to regional or national level power in their field but shaman, medicine men, witch doctors, etc. were available to most people.

I guess I'm luck because I live close to Arkansas and grew up going camping in a state park on a lake next to the reactor.

I would argue that it depends on what skill level of practitioners you mean. Like Pundit pointed out a significant number of villages had 'wise men/women' that used folk magic. So if you include them as part of the lore, there is a significantly high number of them

I remember hearing a lecture on the middle ages that included how they mixed folk "magic" with Chrisitan miracles. I can't remember the exact quote bit it was something like "If your horse or cow has been shot by ilf bow and is sick, then (I can't remember the folk magic fix) or go to the pries or deacon for (I can't remember what the prayers or action were supposed to be).

Of course this is different than the high magic for an alchemist / natural philosopher. That is a higher level and requires 'learning' that exceeds that of a local hedge-mage so there is inherently going to be fewer of them.

Now to get back on the supernatural lore, one thing that has always interested me is the idea that even users of dark arts knew that curses were dangerous even to the caster and what one cursed the curse returned on them (so the caster tried to make sure the one wanted the curse was the one that actually did the cursing). Not sure how that would come into play mechanically in a RPG, but ...

Quote from: Lurker on May 16, 2024, 11:04:03 PMI remember hearing a lecture on the middle ages that included how they mixed folk "magic" with Chrisitan miracles. I can't remember the exact quote bit it was something like "If your horse or cow has been shot by ilf bow and is sick, then (I can't remember the folk magic fix) or go to the pries or deacon for (I can't remember what the prayers or action were supposed to be).

Yes indeed. That charm would be an example of Anglo-Saxon healing galdr. Honestly I think the spell you're thinking of or a similar one has been statted out for OSR games in Crawford's Wolves of God.

Yes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 23, 2024, 08:58:04 AMhttps://abookofcreatures.com/ cross-references a lot of weird creatures with citations and includes fact checking to fix fakelore. A lot of these creatures are weird, particularly when it comes to things like harvesting their body parts for ingredients.

Fearsome critters are my favorite because they're Americana. D&D owes so much to the Old West, so I think there need to be more overt western influences and fearsome critters. Less Lord of the Rings, more Wizard of Oz. Cowboys fighting orcs and snallygasters. But I suppose that's for a different thread

Thanks for the link!

Quote from: Crazy_Blue_Haired_Chick on April 18, 2024, 09:25:20 AMHave you heard about Yokai.com yet?

Thanks for the link!

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2024, 09:35:07 AMYes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

What they would not do is identify what they were doing as magic or themselves as wizards.  They were men of faith sharing the blessings of the Lord.  I know it's all the same to someone viewing it from a Hermetic tradition perspective but it's extremely important to a Christian.

I grew up around this type of ideology.  I have met and spent time talking with Mike Warnke, Kennith Copland, and Carmen Licciardello.  Not to mention the fact that I've studied some Catholic esoteric theory.  What became the inquisition comes from a lot of the same energy that caused the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s.  (You better believe there are still a lot of people steeped in it.)  Many of the Manuals of Inquisition are pretty easy to understand for me as they look a lot (in spirit if not procedure) like the stuff the Evangelicals put out on the subject.

From a conservative Christian perspective, both now and then, all supernatural happenings are either divine or satanic.  A lot of effort goes into figuring out which one is which.  Miracles are divine supernatural events and magic is the result of occult satanic ritual.     

What nearly anyone practicing magic in the middle ages in Europe would need to do is either a) keep it hidden or b) convince onlookers that it was divine in nature and therefore not occult.

Pundit, you said that a lot of it comes down to how you define magic.  I agree. 

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2024, 09:35:07 AMYes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

What they would not do is identify what they were doing as magic or themselves as wizards.  They were men of faith sharing the blessings of the Lord.  I know it's all the same to someone viewing it from a Hermetic tradition perspective but it's extremely important to a Christian.

The above is basically the reason why terms like "Natural Philosophy" (and "Natural Magic") arose in the first place. One thing about the Catholic Church; it likes to define things. It creates terms specifically to distinguish things from what might otherwise be lumped together if the differences are spiritually significant (and sometimes even if they aren't).

"That guy over there is a wizard, I'm a natural philosopher."

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AMWhat became the inquisition comes from a lot of the same energy that caused the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s.

By this are you referring to the Witch trials? I'd associate the creation of the inquisition more with the increase of influence held by the Cathars.

It's funny to me how strong the image of witch trials and magical suppression is with regards to the Church. There was a period of witch trials in Syria shortly before the birth of Christ, a magical papyri burning ordered by Augustus Caesar, a pre-Christian expulsion of astrologers, and a number of Imperial laws against magical practices (often associated with "superstitio").

Why aren't the pagan Romans seen as wizard haters?