Quote from: Jaeger on February 01, 2024, 03:34:36 PM
I've always found the depictions of Kobolds as wrinkly cannibal gnomes to be far more evocative and sinister in appearance than when they are depicted in a more animal like anthropomorphic fashion...

Kobolds and a troll circa 1555.

The Sirens of mythology show up quite often in Medieval bestiaries and encyclopedias often showing up in art along with onocentaurs (but not in this post) representing lust or vanity. I was surprised to find that their kind apparently has its own males. While they almost always take the forms of humans from the waist up, they vary below the waist even within the same illustrations. Sometimes they have an appearance like a mermaid, yet other times they have a bird body with the human torso beginning around the neck. However, I'd say my preferred version is like the last image, where the sirenes have what seems to be the winged body of a web-footed bird below the waist but terminating in a fish tail.

"And they appear with their young, which they carry in their arms, for the mothers suckle the young, which they have at their breasts. And the sailors, when they see the sirens, are very much afraid, and then they throw an empty bottle to her, so that while she plays with the bottle, the ship escapes. This was testified by those who professed to have seen them. As for the rest, as Andelmus writes, they have a part of their body like that of the eagle, and claws on their feet capable of sculling; but at the end of their body they have the scaly tails of fishes, with which they swim like rowers in sea. They have a certain musical and sweet melody in their voice, with which the sailors, delighted and attracted, are sent into sleep, and the sleepers are torn apart by the claws of the sirens. These beasts are said to dwell on islands and sometimes in the waves. But some of the sailors, using a wise plan, block their ears strongly and thus pass unscathed, otherwise they would be disturbed by the deadly song of the sirens." - Thomas of Cantimpre in the Liber de Natura Rerum, 13th Century AD

Judging by the art, sirens may also play instruments and beat you to death with simple weaponry if the charm/sleep fails.

Thomas also relates knowledge of a subspecies of Siren from this same Andelmus:
"Scilla is a sea monster like the siren. Andelmus the philosopher truly says that this monster dwells in that sea which is between Italy and Sicily. Indeed, she is an enemy to the sailor and to all men, and delights in their blood and flesh. Her head and breast are, of course, shaped like a maiden, like sirens; and she has a grin and gaping mouth and horrible teeth and a belly like a beast and a tail like a dolphin. They are of wonderful strength and are not easily conquered in the water; but on earth they are less strong, and almost peaceful. They also have somewhat musical voices, and they are also wonderfully pleased with music."

It seems Scylla also became an entire race of sea monster. It was not uncommon for mythical creatures once described as one-of-a-kind to become a species in later writings; in fact, I'm surprised it took all the way until the modern period for this to occur with the Minotaur. Regardless, Andelmus also implies that scyllae live among dog-fish (whether these are sharks or literal mer-hounds or both would be up to interpretation) and relates them to the mythical Scylla's multiple dog heads.

Also, if anyone knows of this Andelmus fellow's identity, let me know as I have no idea.

Edit: The text from "Andelmus the Philosopher" seems to be related to that of the Liber Monstrorum linked to one Aldhelm of Malmesbury.

"Zyphius, as the great Basilius says in the book Exameron, is very formidable. It is a beast of the sea, exceeding the estimation of men, so that the providential nature of things may be believed to have played in this monster. For it is not likened to the shape of other fishes, nor to the monsters of the sea, nor to the beasts of the earth, nor to the birds of the sky, but has an ideal form, in which only beasts can be glorified, so as to render a worthy spectacle to those who see it, and from this praise by those who see it, to the Creator of all things. Its head is absolutely monstrous; the abyss of its mouth you will flee like the abyss of death; of the eyes you will be horrified; if you see its body, you will admit that you have seen nothing like it anywhere."

I particularly like the depiction with the maw filled with circular rows upon rows of teeth. It's almost Lovecraftian in that it is treated as indescribable. The Zyphius became an owl-faced whale monster of the northern seas in later Renaissance texts.


The sea dragon is a dragon of the sea and is very much like a dragon of the land with its size, gaping maw and hard scales, but has great fins in place of wings. Isidore gives the beast two stinger-arms near to its tail which are deadly poisonous. Thomas of Cantimpre makes the bite that which is venomous, but perhaps it has both. He also notes that sea-dragons can move quite quickly across large distances underwater on account of their great strength. According to Pliny, the sea dragon can dig through sand with great speed and often uses this ability to escape attackers if it is pulled onto land. It is likely the sea-dragon lairs in underwater caves it has so dug. Notably, its bones can be burned into an ash which makes for a most wonderous tooth powder which heals toothaches and strengthens the gums. I have read that its own dead flesh sliced and placed over the wound as a poultice is effective aid against the venom. A less commonly attested remedy would be a potion made from the sea-dragon's brain.


The cacus of the medieval bestiary is a corruption of the Cacus who fought Heracles in Greco-Roman myth. It is a fierce, bristly-furred mammalian beast said to inhabit Arcadia in Greece and also the regions of Italy near to the Tiber River. It is said to be able to breathe fire against its foes. The cacus is not burned by its own flames; perhaps it is burned by no natural flame. It is predatory and often hunts cattle, dragging them by the tails back to the caves where it lairs.

For some stuff relevant to a Middle Eastern or Sword & Caravan game:

It is said that in the East in a land along the Red Sea there are red hens which when touched by a man magically cause him to suddenly combust and die (this is slightly similar to the 1e AD&D MM2's Pyrolisk).



In this same region are strange beasts with two heads and eight legs and eyes like gorgons. In other manuscripts, these are little beasts with one head, two horns, eight eyes and eight legs. Either way, they are said to swiftly flee from the sound of humans but fight viciously if cornered. Be well armed if you intend to hunt them.


In the Assyrian deserts there are Corsias or Cerastes. These are venomous ram-horned serpents which guard pepper plants and allegedly contribute to the desert's infertility. Perhaps this is due to their venomous nature? There are also wild asses of large size with horns like those of oxen.

In Africa and Arabia, of course, there are mythical subtypes of human: Cynocephali, various types of giants, fish-eating pygmies, blemmeyes, but also a fair-skinned female race which ranges from 7' to 14' in height with long hair, cow tails, tusk resembling boars', and camel feet.


One thing I feel was an oversight of Sword & Caravan in light of the early medieval text Wonders of the East is that the giant ants should have had a small % chance to be hoarding gold they've dug up in their lairs. It would have given PC's an additional reason to hunt for them.

Have you heard about Yokai.com yet?

I have! I use it semi-frequently.

Figured I'd drop a bunch of medieval Japanese magic rituals and practitioners from my notes I've learned about via the Internet and a number of books over the years:

Magic practitioners in Japan:
In the case of folk magic it could be almost anyone.

Nobles may secretly learn rituals if they can find teachers or scrolls. In many of the legends involving magicians summoning Oni or yokai to wreak havoc, these mages are mostly nobles sometimes even samurai.

Shinto Kannushi (priests) and Miko (priestesses) perform magics. Particularly Invocation and pacification of kami, purification, combatting and casting curses, necromancy, rain-making, Shamanic spirit possession, paper charms/Talismans, and various forms of divination like Bokusen, ornithomancy, and hydromancy. Spirit possession is most common among the priestesses. A Japanese book I read from the 1930's implied the presence of Shintoist sexual magic at one time including the conception of a "Divine Child" (Jp: Mikogami; like a moonchild?). If such survived into the middle ages it would be in isolated rural villages. Traveling shamanesses not or loosely affiliated with shrines also existed. [Unfinished Section]

Buddhist priests and sometimes nuns who utilize rituals of esoteric mikkyo Buddhism particularly from Shingon and Tendai sects. Including mudra, mantra, paper charms/talismans, Goma/Homa Fire ritual, āveśa possession, and various tantra. Some of these arts are said to have passed to the Ninja. The nuns sometimes adopted spirit possession from the Shinto tradition. Some Buddhist clergy practice modified Liu Ren divination and astrology (Medieval Japanese Buddhist astrological texts are very similar to Persian style western astrology with Chinese elements; in fact, the planetary spirit illustrations in one of the surviving manuscripts are clearly derived from Persian works).

Shugenja and Yamabushi who use the arts of both Shinto and Buddhist practice following the example of En no Ozuna. Among the Buddhist practices they are best known for variants of Goma fire rituals. These are also well known for using genjutsu (illusion and prestidigitation). Some ninja were said to have learned a bit of the magic of shugendo.

Onmyouji who serve the elite. These are magicians who focus mostly on the Taoist tradition with Shinto and perhaps some Buddhist elements. They are associated with shikiban (Liu Ren) divination, I Ching divination, astrology, purification, fusui (Feng shui), combatting curses (or casting them), mantras, paper charms/talismans, using familiar shikigami spirits, invoking and pacifying deities and spirits, rain making, etc. They may possess knowledge of Chinese external alchemy (not Internal) though it lost popularity after the Nara period.

Street performers like the Heian and Kamakura period Kugutsushi or later Muromachi period Shomoji and street magicians (genjutsushi) also had ties to the magical arts. Shomoji were associated with a variety of religious and onmyo rituals in addition to the performing arts. The Muromachi and Sengoku periods were a golden age of famous street illusionists like Kashin Koji (reputed to be an actual wizard) and Kato Danzo (who was also a ninja). Toward the end of the Sengoku era when the government began to crack down on Christianity, street magic performances, despite a multi-century history, were banned as "black arts of the Christian Fathers" for a while amusingly enough.

Nademono Purification: A onmyo ritual where a paper doll roughly in the shape of a human is crafted by the practitioner. The target to be purified of sin and ritual pollution must rub it on their bodies and breathe upon it to transfer the corruption. The practitioner then take it back and prays to the gods over it before floating it down a running waterway. Some practitioners refold them into little boats before doing this.

Bokusen Divination: Divination through heating bones in a fire and interpreting the cracks in relation to positive/negative queries. Often a tortoise shell or deer scapula.

Ushi no Koku Mairi: Vestament: White Clothing, white face paint (Red in older times), a Mirror worn on chest, Ichiba Geta, a wooden comb or bamboo and pine root brand lit at both ends in the mouth, wearing upon the head an inverted iron gotoku tripod topped with three lit candles. The practitioner must head to a Shinto shrine and nail a staw effigy representing the target to a sacred tree at the Hour of the Ox. Silence must be maintained and other people avoided lest the curse misfire onto them or otherwise fail. The ritual must be performed successfully for seven nights. On the seventh a spirit will be summoned in the form of a black ox. If the practitioner mounts the bull without fear, the spirit will fulfill the curse. The curse causes a fatal illness beginning in the part of the body where the doll was nailed. Performing this ritual is an act of chaos with some risk of turning into an Oni (mutation). It also possible to request this of the spirit directly.

Inugami Ritual: An illegal chaotic ritual often associated with continental Gu magic. In this ritual one buries a dog up to it's neck with food just out of reach. As it is at its hungriest and stretching its neck toward the food, decapitate it. Take the severed head into a vessel and secretly enshrine it within the home. The dog-spirit (inugami) will become a powerful familiar capable of death curses, biting foes to death, possess living things and objects, giving oracles, and stealing. The form of the Inugami is of a dog with a split tail or a flying vicious dog head. The Inugami will serve the practitioner and his house loyally unless they abuse it in which case they will be bitten to death. There was a record of a case where a Shinto Miko was generating Inugami and selling them in vessels at market. Furthermore, there is a version of this ritual to create a Nekogami with a calico cat instead in Kii Province said to have been passed down by tantric priests from Honganji in the 14th or 15th century.

Taizan Fukun no Sai: A powerful and secret Onmyo ritual mainly invoking the Taoist god of Mt. Tai. An onmyo altar is erected and the divinities are summoned. They are requested to deal with matters regarding lifespans and may extend lifespans, prevent death from fatal wounds or illness, or even resurrect the recently deceased. An argument for the value of the deceased must be presented and rich sacrifices offered: Gold, silver, horses or even human life. For minor intervention the gods may be satisfied with a false sacrifice of substituted paper dolls or a trivial amount of a person's life; however, in major cases they will require more possibly resulting in what is effectively sacrificing one or more lives for another.

Izuna Ritual: Shinto folk magic used to grant a fox familiar, typically a kudagitsune kept in a bamboo tube or kimono sleeve. Often associated with Yamabushi. The process is as follows: Find and tame a pregnant vixen, take care of her until she gives birth, she will ask you to name a kit, and that kit shall be your loyal familiar. There are dangers that the familiar may cause mischief on your behalf without being asked or may multiply with others of it's kind increasing the number of familiars to a difficult to handle degree (as the children will also serve the practitioner and his house). Common uses of the familiar are as spies, oracles, performing curses, possession, cause disease, or steal from others. For this reason, suspected practitioners are often persecuted by their communities akin to witches in the Far West. There are variants of this practice which utilize tanuki or snakes (toubyo) but are otherwise identical.

Houkigami Ritual: i.e. A Broom Ritual for Safe Childbirth. This is a Shinto folk ritual which entails gently sweeping a broom over the belly of a pregnant woman (as if to sweep the child out safely) while invoking the spirit of brooms and childbirth, Houkigami.

Tachikawa Skull Ritual:
"If anyone would practice this secret Dharma (Ritual) and attain great Siddhi (magical powers), he must construct an object of worship (honzon). I do not refer to the auspicious face of a woman here; this misogi (purification Rite) is a skull. There are, in fact, ten different types of skull that may be used:
1 the skull of a wise man
2 the skull of an ascetic
3 the skull of a king
4 the skull a shogun
5 the skull of a great minister
6 the skull of an elder
7 the skull of a father
8 the skull of a mother
9 a "Thousand Cranium" skull
10 a "Dharamdhatu" (entire material universal) skull.

The first eight are clear enough. The "Thousand Cranium" skull is made by grinding the tops of a thousand men's skulls into flour and molding the bone-paste into a honzon. For the "Dharmadhātu" skull, one must go to a cemetery on the chōyō (an onmyodo festival held on the 9th day of the 9th month. Since the number 9 is the perfect maximum yang/yō in Chinese divination it is seen as a particularly powerful and auspicious day. See: kuji-in), collects a large number of skulls, chants dākini (Dakini represent an especially crucial component of the Skull Ritual) incantations/prayers, and prays over the skulls. Finally, he takes the one, that when placed at the bottom of pile of skulls repeatedly rises to the top of the pile; or else he goes out on a frosty morning and selects the one that on which no frost has formed. Or, best of all, he selects a skull that is completely free of suture lines.

Whatever type he chooses can be made into a honzon (object of worship). For any of the ten types of skull there are three methods of construction possible. These are "the whole head", "the small head", and "the moon-shaped head". For "the whole head", the officiant uses the original skull. To this he adds a chin, puts in a tongue and teeth, and covers the bone with a hard lacquer so that it looks just like the unblemished flesh of a living person. When the skull has been completely formed, he places it in a box. Then he must have sexual intercourse with the skull and with a beautiful and willing woman, and must repeatedly wipe the liquid product (the mixture of male and female seminal and vaginal secretions) of this act on the skull until it reaches 120 layers. Each night at midnight he must burn "Spirit returning" incense (frankincense/hangon-kō), pass the smoke through the eye holes of the skull, and chant a "spirit returning" mantra fully and perfectly one thousand times.

After carrying out the procedure above for a number of days, the officiant places the appropriate charms and secret talismans (sōō motsu) into the skull. Once this procedure has been meticulously completed, he covers the skull with three layers of gold and silver leaf. Over these layers, the mandala must be inscribed, and then more gold and silver leafe applied, then another mandala applied over that, just as before. Thus the layers of gold and silver foil and sacred writings are built up – the outer layers are five and six, then in the center thirteen layers, all over the base of 120 layers of the red and white elixir (male and female sexual secretions). (Presumably this will equal the thickness of muscle and flesh of a real person) The ink of the mandlas should also be the twin fluids of intercourse.

Cinnabar (mercury sulfide) is rubbed into the tongue and lips, the teeth are set in silver leaf, and the eyes are painted in comely fashion, or, precious gems (jade, mother of pearl, or cornelian) can be used for the eyes. Them face is painted white and rouge patted in to create the appearance of a beautiful woman or boy. The image must look prosperous and have a face that smiles without the slightest hint of reproach.

During the entire process the sacred skull is to be kept on an altar in a place where no one ever goes, and various delicacies, beautiful flowers, and fine wines are to be offered to it. No one must go there (to the skull altar) but the craftsman, the adept, and the woman. There (at the skull altar) they must happily and willingly and ceaselessly disport themselves as if celebrating the first three days of the New Year. Each act and word must be wholly free of any sign of care.

Once the honzon is finished, it is installed on the altar. Offerings of rare things are made daily; spirit-returning incense is burned; and the various observations are carried out at the hours of the Rat, the Ox, and the Tiger (midnight to dawn). With the arrival of the Hour of the Hare (dawn), the honzon is placed in a bag made of seven layers of brocade. Once this bag has been closed, it is not easy to reopen. Every night the bag is held close to the adept's body to keep it (the skull) warm; during the day it is placed on the altar, where delicacies (fowl, fish, meats, blood, rice, and so on) must be gathered and offered for its nourishment.

For seven years, day and night, the adept must and will devote the whole of his being and mind to this practice. When the eight year comes, the ascetic will obtain Siddhi (magical powers). For those who reach the highest grade of practice, the honzon will return to life and speak aloud (presumably predicting the future and bestowing upon the practitioner great Wisdom and knowledge). Since it will inform him of all events of the universe, he should listen carefully to it and thus become as someone with divine powers. For practitioners of the middle rank, the honzon will tell them the meaning of their dreams. It will not speak to those of the lower ranks, but all their desires will come to be realized in accordance with their wishes.

The second method, the "Small Head" method, exists because of the difficulty of carrying around a whole head. The top of one whole skull can be divided into eight pieces and each piece used as a face lacquered into a plate made of wood of a sacred tree. Again, one sketches in the mandala in thin layers, daubs the honzon with the twin waters of intercourse, inserts the appropriate charms and talismans, and decorates the face just as before. The "Small head" is then hung around the neck but under the garments, and nourished just as before.

In the case of the third. "Moon-Shaped" method, a whole cranium is cut off at the eyebrows, the brain pan is carefully dried and cleaned, and the moon-shaped inner cavity coated with the lacquer of the twin waters of intercourse. Various charms and talismans are placed in it, again the mandala is laid out in thin color, all as before. On the surface of the "Moon-skull" the practitioner must paint a honzon while continuously reciting mantras. Cinnabar in packed inside. Then the practitioner is to wrap the skull in a nine-layered Monk's habit made from silk stained with menstrual blood of a beautiful young virgin woman. He then places it in a nine-layered casket wrapped in seven layers of brocaded silk, hangs it from his neck under his garments (to keep it dry and warm), and devoutly recites mantras to it wherever he goes.

There are recommended variations on this procedure, from taking the skull to its final installation and resurrection, since several oral (kuden) teachings have been handed down by the old and wise. I have noted and summarized only about one-hundredth of the whole Ritual. But in general this is how the practitioner carries out this Ritual."

The skull may serve the practitioner through the 7 spirits bound to the remains. A higher level practitioner may receive knowledge in dreams while the highest may create a skull able to speak oracles. These 7 spirits will take on the forms of dakini, foxes/jackals, or Buddhas as the situation requires. This ritual was sometimes associated with elements of the Izuna sect of Shinano province as was Izuna Ritual and Dakiniten Ritual (see below). This practice and the Tachikawa school of Shingon Buddhism itself were considered heretical.

Esoteric Buddhist Spells:
Esoteric Buddhist spells are typically Goma Fire Rituals or Tantra. Holy oils contain boiled milk and honey.

There are 5 stages in Goma: Invocation to Katen (Agni), Protective Invocation to Gozanze-Myo (Trailokyavijaya), Main Deity Invocation, Invocation to the 73 major deities, Invocation to Devas of the outer Mandala.

Pacifying Rites
Often invoke Fudo myoo (Acala). Used to drive away illness spirits, ease childbirth, safe sea travel, protect from fire or natural disasters, etc. Vestments are white. Kanboku liquorice flowers are burned. Best time is the start of night. Altar should face north with a round hearth.

Subduing rites (keiaihoo, Aizenhoo; S: vasikarana)
A love enchantment very popular in the Heian period: The hearth is round like an eight-petalled lotus flower, facing west. The best time of day for the ceremony is midnight. Vestments of the priests of red color. The main object of worship is Aizen Myoo (Ragaraja). The ceremony often lasted an entire night (ichiya goma). 108 flowers, mostly red lotuses, are burned in the 3rd stage. If a triangular hearth is used here, as in banishing rites, a previously unruly partner becomes submissive to the victim and does what the other wants

Banishing rites (choobukuhoo, chuubukuhoo, goobukuhoo) (S: aabhicaarika)
A type of black magic for cursing and subduing enemies: The hearth is triangular, facing south. The triangle here is the symbol of fire, which is used to destroy enemies. The best time of day for the ceremony is midday or night. Vestments of the priests of green and black color. Old wood (koboku) is burned. Red flowers with a pungent scent. The healing being invoked is usually Daigensui Myoo (Atavaka) or the five great wisdom kings (godai myoo). These ceremonies are among the oldest; Through them, particularly powerful deities are summoned and so in times of crisis the ruler often ordered them to protect the country or to overpower enemies of the state (seiteki, onteki). In a sense they were also political instruments and their history is particularly interesting (see Takemitsu). There are four other subgroups of these rites.

Life-prolonging rites (enmeihoo, Fugen enmeihoo)
A sub-form of the multiplying rites that was particularly popular in Japan. Prayers to extend one's lifespan. The stove is rectangular, the handle of the cover is in the shape of a wishing jewel with a wreath of flames. The salvation being invoked is Fugen Enmei Bosatsu (Vajramongha Samayasattva) with two or twenty arms. There is also a ritual for a six month life extension invoking Fudo myoo.

Japanese sources also state that in India and Tibet there are said to be rites for killing enemies (jusatsuhoo; see Pundit's Magic of Kunlun), for breaking ties with unwanted friends (rikanhoo), etc.

Dakiniten Ritual: A secret Buddhist ritual which invokes Dakiniten and is often portrayed as summoning her in the form of a fox/fox-woman. Generally grants temporal power, may be lost as quickly as was gained.

Shugenja usually invoke Fudo-Myou or Zao Gongen in pacifying rites vs misfortune

The mountain range of the Shugenja from Kumano to Yoshino is a Mandala for magical purposes.

This is a lot of the research I've been gathering for the magic system for my current project.  My goal is to make a shinobi game set in the Sengoku period and dial the magic and mysticism up to making it a fantasy RPG somewhere between low fantasy and high fantasy.  Essentially, I want it to be a setting that does for feudal Japan what Lion & Dragon does for The War of the Roses.

Interesting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMInteresting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

In Christian tradition, any use of magic is considered a contract with the devil.  There were no officially recognized court mages in Christian European nations.  This is also true in Islamic countries.  There was no distinction between witches and great wizards, they were all sinners in need of burning.  Many western magic users practiced in secret, always afraid of getting caught.

Officially John Dee was the Court Astronomer and an advisor.

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 13, 2024, 06:17:15 AMOfficially John Dee was the Court Astronomer and an advisor.

This is where you get into what are now called the Natural Sciences (astonomy, chemistry, biology, physics, etc.), but before the organized procedures of the scientific method were often called the Natural Magics.

The dividing line for The Medieval and Renaissance Catholic Church was that studying and applying the nature and functions of God's Creation was morally licit; God had given dominion over the Earth to Man and placed these properties within His Creation for Man's benefit, so seeking them out was what God intended for us.

Other forms of magic involved communing and bargaining with spirits of unknown origin (sure, it can say it's an angel or your dead granny, and maybe sometimes it even could be, but demons lie and seek every opportunity to lead men into sin and you're literally knocking on their door to ask for advice) are deemed sinful because you aren't putting your faith in God (nor that your prayers to Him will be heard and answered in what God deems is best for you).

From a modern perspective, none of the natural magics are actually magic, they're applied proto-science. But from the perspective of the time Clarke's Law holds... misunderstood science/technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Astronomy in particular is one of those areas that fell under Natural Magic. Sure, the movement of the planets and stars has little to do determining outcomes on Earth (certainly not wars, famines and the like), but it was studying the natural world for clues (and it's not like the Bible didn't record God using celestial events to mark important actions by Him on Earth) and so wasn't sinful, just not terribly useful for what they were hoping to find (it was, however, extremely useful for navigation, timekeeping, and eventually our understanding of the cosmos).

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMWhat is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

The late Roman and early Medieval Church theoretically didn't believe in the existence of magic. You were expected to do penance for the pagan superstition of believing in or practicing it. That said most people at that time did believe in it as many secular law codes show.

In the High and Late Middle ages it was posited that magic was mostly fake but sometimes an illusion of the senses caused by demons.

At first the Catholic Church was against witch hunts but the zeitgeist of the times ultimately won out.

On the matter of transformation into newts or other animals: the official line became that it was demons modifying the perception of both the "transformed" and observers, but some respectable scholars did suggest that if allowed by God demons may actually reorganize one's atoms into the new form. Gervase of Tillsbury I believe may have held this view.

Quote from: WERDNA on December 19, 2023, 01:21:07 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 19, 2023, 01:10:56 AMSome of my Pundit Files issues were going to feature these monsters.

Exciting to hear. I'm sure you'll do better than Oriental Adventures did with them (not that I blame them, research would've been harder back then). ...Wait, why past tense?

As it turns out my article on the four terrible creatures isn't going to be going into the Pundit Files after all, it will be in the next issue of Mad Scribe Magazine.

Quote from: BadApple on May 13, 2024, 05:25:03 AM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMInteresting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

In Christian tradition, any use of magic is considered a contract with the devil.  There were no officially recognized court mages in Christian European nations.  This is also true in Islamic countries.  There was no distinction between witches and great wizards, they were all sinners in need of burning.  Many western magic users practiced in secret, always afraid of getting caught.

That's completely wrong. For most of the middle ages there was no distinction between science and magic, and for that matter some of the humanities and medicine too. And there was no notion whatsoever that high magic was "of the devil". Folk magic was a bit different but for most of the middle ages the main view of both Church and Crown to folk magic was that most of it was just empty powerless superstition.

Only certain very specific forms of magical activities were either illegal or banned by the church or both. Poisoning and enchantment were illegal. Making pacts with demons (summoned by evocation) was banned by the church (note: binding demons was not). Doing divinations about the King without the King's express permission was illegal, as it was seen as somewhere between espionage and treason. The church forbade certain practices of Alchemy which required dead bodies, and these were typically outlawed by the crown too.  Magic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church. And trying to make gold using alchemy required a costly permit.

There were absolutely court magicians in various Christian nations. Dee was Queen Elizabeth's astrologer (and also one of the first spies in Her Majesty's Secret Service, with the code number "007"); he selected the date for her coronation using astrology, everyone knew it, and thought it was perfectly fine. He was later courted by various monarchs of Europe who wanted him to be THEIR court magician. Likewise Edward Kelley.

Of course, a MUCH bigger patron of magic than the royal crowns was the CHURCH. Countless monasteries engaged in the studies of "natural philosophy", including alchemy and all kinds of conjuring. There were popes who had practiced magic. And great saints; including Thomas Aquinas, who studied under the great and renowned philosopher-friar Albertus Magnus, who as not only a Dominican monk but also the CHAIR OF THEOLOGY at the University of Paris in the 1240s.

So you're just unbelievably, ridiculously, moronically wrong.

I'll add that Michael Scotus served in a similar capacity as Dee for Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II in earlier times.