Was Tolkien the alpha and omega of gaming (to our current detriment)?

BoxCrayonTales · April 24, 2024, 06:31:12 PM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on April 24, 2024, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 24, 2024, 04:33:23 PMI think that's a fair critique. There's thousands and thousands of Middle Earth rip-offs, but only one Nyambe and it's not even supported anymore.

Then what the Hell is stopping you from writing one? Chop, chop. Put up or shut up.

I wouldn't know the first place to start

Trond · April 24, 2024, 08:34:44 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 24, 2024, 04:33:23 PM
Quote from: Trond on April 24, 2024, 04:12:18 PMTo answer the original question, no, Tolkien was not to the detriment of the hobby. I agree with those who say that wokeists would insert themselves no matter what. Say, if elves were simply handled as spirits by Tolkien, and we used that in gaming, they would complain about why we don't have more African spirits or some such.
I think that's a fair critique. There's thousands and thousands of Middle Earth rip-offs, but only one Nyambe and it's not even supported anymore.

Well, Middle-Earth is popular, and with good reason if you ask me. But the problem is the tendency to demand "diversity"inserted everywhere. Tolkien-based products would be criticized for not including such "diverse" elements no matter what.

ralfy · April 24, 2024, 10:57:20 PM

From what I remember, Tolkien saw Gondor as Avalon, or the England that he missed, with trees, etc. Mordor, on the other hand, is the modern world, with industralization, profit, greed, mechanization, and specialization. That must have been prompted by his experiences of WWI, when he fought in the trenches and where many of his friends died.

BoxCrayonTales · April 25, 2024, 10:52:26 AM

Sorry, I forgot to address something.

Yeah, being upset not!Europe isn't 100% black is ridiculous. Cheddar Man's people were suffering rickets and evolved white skin in order to survive. It's not racist to point this out.

If the woke hate white people and Europe, then write Afro Fantasy. It's really that simple. There's no shortage of African scholars who can explain it.

I'm complaining that the fantasy genre fetishizes a fake vision of medieval Europe at the expense of real historical cultures and the other continents.

It's ridiculous that an RTS like Godsworn is depicting a fantastical version of the Baltic crusade before any ttrpg has tried. RTS is orders of magnitude more difficult to create and fund.

WERDNA · April 25, 2024, 12:56:43 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 25, 2024, 10:52:26 AMIt's ridiculous that an RTS like Godsworn is depicting a fantastical version of the Baltic crusade before any ttrpg has tried.

Well Crusaders of the Amber Coast exists...

BoxCrayonTales · April 25, 2024, 02:40:42 PM

Quote from: WERDNA on April 25, 2024, 12:56:43 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 25, 2024, 10:52:26 AMIt's ridiculous that an RTS like Godsworn is depicting a fantastical version of the Baltic crusade before any ttrpg has tried.
Well Crusaders of the Amber Coast exists...

Never heard of that before. Huh

Armchair Gamer · April 25, 2024, 03:00:33 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 25, 2024, 02:40:42 PM
Quote from: WERDNA on April 25, 2024, 12:56:43 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 25, 2024, 10:52:26 AMIt's ridiculous that an RTS like Godsworn is depicting a fantastical version of the Baltic crusade before any ttrpg has tried.
Well Crusaders of the Amber Coast exists...
Never heard of that before. Huh

BRP Supplement by Alephtar Games. Unfortunately out of print and not available in PDF, so like so much of their material, it's hard to find and getting harder. (I nabbed a copy at an FLGS Christmas sale a few years ago, but Stupor Mundi on the 13th century HRE was harder to find ... and I'm still hunting a copy of their nomads sourcebook, Wind on the Steppes.)

Trond · April 25, 2024, 09:22:19 PM

Here's a question: these Africa-based settings, do they sell? Do black people actually buy them in larger numbers than they otherwise would?

I'm actually interested in trying a setting like that once (I also bought the Pundit's book based on India, and a few others that are slightly different from the norm). But I also suspect that the situation is a bit similar to what Bill Burr points out about women's sports ("they don't buy any tickets!!!"

).

Slambo · April 25, 2024, 09:58:38 PM

Quote from: Trond on April 25, 2024, 09:22:19 PMHere's a question: these Africa-based settings, do they sell? Do black people actually buy them in larger numbers than they otherwise would?

I'm actually interested in trying a setting like that once (I also bought the Pundit's book based on India, and a few others that are slightly different from the norm). But I also suspect that the situation is a bit similar to what Bill Burr points out about women's sports ("they don't buy any tickets!!!" ).

Anecdotally, I'm not really attracted to African settings myself. Except Ancient Egypt based settings if you count that.

Omega · April 25, 2024, 10:56:26 PM

Quote from: Trond on April 24, 2024, 04:12:18 PMTo answer the original question, no, Tolkien was not to the detriment of the hobby. I agree with those who say that wokeists would insert themselves no matter what. Say, if elves were simply handled as spirits by Tolkien, and we used that in gaming, they would complain about why we don't have more African spirits or some such.

Pretty much this. Remember. There is no limit at all that the woke can not hallucinate some utterly insane excuse for.

"Goblins are red. That means they re really Native Americans! And that means when you are killing goblins you are promoting real world GENOCIDE!!!"

Opaopajr · April 26, 2024, 12:15:56 AM

Quote from: Omega on April 25, 2024, 10:56:26 PM
Quote from: Trond on April 24, 2024, 04:12:18 PMTo answer the original question, no, Tolkien was not to the detriment of the hobby. I agree with those who say that wokeists would insert themselves no matter what. Say, if elves were simply handled as spirits by Tolkien, and we used that in gaming, they would complain about why we don't have more African spirits or some such.

Pretty much this. Remember. There is no limit at all that the woke can not hallucinate some utterly insane excuse for.

"Goblins are red. That means they re really Native Americans! And that means when you are killing goblins you are promoting real world GENOCIDE!!!"

Indeed.

D&D 5e Trinkets are problematic! They exist but they are not all about ME!!!!

The paper is trying to penetrate me and colonize my body! Damn you, monogamy!

Descriptive box text in adventures are a function of violence inherent in the system! (Hmm, this might actually be true.

)

Cipher · April 26, 2024, 03:37:17 AM

Quote from: Omega on April 25, 2024, 10:56:26 PM
Quote from: Trond on April 24, 2024, 04:12:18 PMTo answer the original question, no, Tolkien was not to the detriment of the hobby. I agree with those who say that wokeists would insert themselves no matter what. Say, if elves were simply handled as spirits by Tolkien, and we used that in gaming, they would complain about why we don't have more African spirits or some such.

Pretty much this. Remember. There is no limit at all that the woke can not hallucinate some utterly insane excuse for.

"Goblins are red. That means they re really Native Americans! And that means when you are killing goblins you are promoting real world GENOCIDE!!!"

They already did this, with all the cries of "greenskins" being a racial slur and such. I've even seen some people claim that Dragon Age Origins calling elves "knife ears" was also a racial slur.

ForgottenF · April 26, 2024, 08:10:55 AM

Quote from: Cipher on April 26, 2024, 03:37:17 AM
Quote from: Omega on April 25, 2024, 10:56:26 PM
Quote from: Trond on April 24, 2024, 04:12:18 PMTo answer the original question, no, Tolkien was not to the detriment of the hobby. I agree with those who say that wokeists would insert themselves no matter what. Say, if elves were simply handled as spirits by Tolkien, and we used that in gaming, they would complain about why we don't have more African spirits or some such.

Pretty much this. Remember. There is no limit at all that the woke can not hallucinate some utterly insane excuse for.

"Goblins are red. That means they re really Native Americans! And that means when you are killing goblins you are promoting real world GENOCIDE!!!"

They already did this, with all the cries of "greenskins" being a racial slur and such. I've even seen some people claim that Dragon Age Origins calling elves "knife ears" was also a racial slur.

I mean, isn't' it? I thought the fantasy racism subplot in Dragon Age was one of it's most tiresome elements, but wasn't it supposed to be a clumsy analogy to real-world racism?

Also is that where that came from? Calling elves "knife-ears" has become a bit of a meme at this point, to the point where it even made it into that shitty Rings of Power show. I was wondering who came up with it first.

Trond · April 26, 2024, 10:07:59 AM

Quote from: Slambo on April 25, 2024, 09:58:38 PM
Quote from: Trond on April 25, 2024, 09:22:19 PMHere's a question: these Africa-based settings, do they sell? Do black people actually buy them in larger numbers than they otherwise would?

I'm actually interested in trying a setting like that once (I also bought the Pundit's book based on India, and a few others that are slightly different from the norm). But I also suspect that the situation is a bit similar to what Bill Burr points out about women's sports ("they don't buy any tickets!!!" ).

Anecdotally, I'm not really attracted to African settings myself. Except Ancient Egypt based settings if you count that.

Well, Egypt does have a long history. Africa south of the Sahara is the opposite.

This is also part of the problem when people say that we should teach more history written by blacks or whatever. There's not a whole lot written even recently, and the proposition falls apart the moment we want something more ancient. "OK then, let's get some books based on prominent writers south of the Sahara from say 2000 years ago? Someone like Xenophon or Cicero maybe? ....No?"

ForgottenF · April 26, 2024, 10:45:14 AM

Quote from: Trond on April 26, 2024, 10:07:59 AM
Quote from: Slambo on April 25, 2024, 09:58:38 PM
Quote from: Trond on April 25, 2024, 09:22:19 PMHere's a question: these Africa-based settings, do they sell? Do black people actually buy them in larger numbers than they otherwise would?

I'm actually interested in trying a setting like that once (I also bought the Pundit's book based on India, and a few others that are slightly different from the norm). But I also suspect that the situation is a bit similar to what Bill Burr points out about women's sports ("they don't buy any tickets!!!" ).

Anecdotally, I'm not really attracted to African settings myself. Except Ancient Egypt based settings if you count that.

Well, Egypt does have a long history. Africa south of the Sahara is the opposite.

This is also part of the problem when people say that we should teach more history written by blacks or whatever. There's not a whole lot written even recently, and the proposition falls apart the moment we want something more ancient. "OK then, let's get some books based on prominent writers south of the Sahara from say 2000 years ago? Someone like Xenophon or Cicero maybe? ....No?"

On top of that, most of the market for RPGs, including among black people, is way more steeped in the European-Mediterranean cultural tradition than they are in the African. They're probably more comfortable roleplaying something like ancient Greece than they are ancient Africa.

This I assume is the reason there aren't more RPG settings based on historical China. There's plenty of source material, but it's not something the mostly Euro/American audience has much interest in.