Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2021, 10:42:01 PM
I was thinking more sixguns & khopesh, but there's a lot of variation possible on a society strung along a great river. It has one advantage over a standard hex crawl -- a sense of direction.

Well, they're called "projectors" and are finicky enough to need special training, but there is a six-gun equivalent in setting. There are also steam boats, though their complex enough that most consider them a type of low magic.

As I've mentioned before on other threads the setting's primary inspiration is actually Thundarr the Barbarian so there's a blurring between arcane magic and super-science.

The improved technology also justifies slightly higher urban density as I'm using crop yields and labor requirements closer to America c. 1850 instead of medieval demographics (basically only 80% instead of 95% of the population is needed for farm labor and yields on good ground can support 200/sq. mile instead topping out at around 100/sq. mile using medieval techniques).

Basically, instead of a population of 10,000 having only 500 non-farm workers, it can support 2000 and instead of needing 200 square miles of cultivated land to support that population (a 14x14 mile square; nearly a day's travel for a laden horse cart from center to border) it needs only 50 square miles (a 7x7 mile square; or close enough to travel from center to border and back again in a day and for less laden riders to get from center to border in well under an hour).

Thus, a realm like the main heroic realm in the setting (the republic) with its mere 35,000 people can support the same quantity of non-farm businesses as a medieval realm of 140,000 and the land area is small enough that the farm labor can reside within the fortified walls of larger towns and capitol city for protection (no more than an hour's walk or ride to the fields in the morning, and the same to get back) and the wyvern cavalry from the capital can reach even the furthest points in the realm in about 20 minutes.

This also means the size of the military is sufficiently small (310 full time guards, 40 wyvern cavalry using the traditional standard that a society can support 1% of its population being full-time military) that it NEEDS adventurers to explore and expand its borders into the wilderness because the standing army is only sufficient for defense of the realm, not campaigns into hostile territory.

* * * *

As to fantasy Egypt, they aren't along the default setting river, but they are in the desert (called the Blood Wastes due to the high iron content in the sands) past the Eastern mountains of the default setting region along their own river system... the ancient kingdom of the Beastmen, Bestia.

Yeah, I couldn't resist making the main inhabitants of my fantasy Egypt all have animal heads, but they're actually the first worshippers of the astral gods (most of humans converted from the Old Faith after losing a war to the Beastmen).

* * * *

In terms of the thread topic there's another axis upon which too much data can reside and that's history. It's not just that the Realms' geography is laid out in extensive detail, it's that the history is also extensively detailed with little room for GMs to insert their details without it colliding with some established bit of history.

Likewise, in the same way that many fantasy worlds' population densities are all out of whack; recorded histories that extend back tens of thousands of years, human kingdoms and dynasties that last millennia.

There's a reason my Cataclysmic happened just 200 years ago. 200 years is a wonderful cut off point for being past the point of living memory (the only common species with longer lifespans didn't arrive in the until dragged there by the cataclysm), but still recent enough that the elderly remember the stories of the time before told by their own grandparents (who experienced it as children).

Basically, everything relevant to the political world has occurred in the last 200 years (and I only cover the high points with even passing specificity). History that can be unearthed from the ruins of the pre-Cataclysm empire goes back to about 800 years ago (details are known, but vast chunks are missing/incomplete). Myths and legends about the foundations of the major religions date to c. 2000-3000 years prior and are as fragmentary as our understanding ancient Egypt or Greece (resulting in actual disputes over the truth of various religious dogmas since the gods are distant and inaccessible in the setting).

In short, there's whole chunks of empty space in the history to drop whatever details you wish. I also didn't even lock down a canon "hidden history" in the GM material. Instead I presented a number of questions about the past where I included deliberate contradictions and groups with different interpretations that were presented in the player side material and provided several potential answers to each for the GM to pick from.

As such, there is literally no way a player can ever know more about the setting than the GM because key bits of lore including truths about the gods/religion and history are specifically left for the GM to decide. There's not even a canon cause for the Cataclysm that establishes the setting (for most games all that's important is that it happened not why it happened; I've got half-a-dozen possibilities if the GM ever does need an answer though).

I can't take any real credit for this approach though. I actually first encountered the approach in the old Mekton Empire supplement where it included a section on the mysteries of the galaxy with blanks and multiple choice answers for each that ranged from relatively mundane reasons for everything to a grand galactic conspiracy if you assembled the multiple choice answers the right way.

I HIGHLY recommend that approach (and checking out how Mekton Empire did it if you can dig up a copy) for anyone looking to build their own published setting as it hits the sweet spot of both the advantages of a pre-built setting for GMs and of a custom-built setting where there are actually mysteries the players will have to work to uncover instead of being able to find them all in the GM material.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 23, 2021, 11:24:34 AMI HIGHLY recommend that approach (and checking out how Mekton Empire did it if you can dig up a copy) for anyone looking to build their own published setting as it hits the sweet spot of both the advantages of a pre-built setting for GMs and of a custom-built setting where there are actually mysteries the players will have to work to uncover instead of being able to find them all in the GM material.

Which reminds me, when is this game of yours going to hit the market again?

Here's my solution:

1) For almost every game, I only use the core book. If its not in the core book (or a chosen supplement), then it doesn't exist at the table. Traveller is even easier. I roll up my own subsector with its own problems. I bring along only as much 3rd Imperium baggage as I want and a dozen systems (many with inhabited moons and multiple planets) is more than enough for a years long campaign.

2) I declare a starting point and make it clear that future events in the canon MAY or MAY NOT happen. In L5R, there's a whole blahblah about what the Scorpion clan may have done and how a minor clan became major, so when I run L5R, I'll pick the when point and make sure the players know their mega-canon knowledge post that start point isn't relevant.

3) When looking at where to set my campaign, I look for an area that's been sparsely discussed. For instance, Warhammer is heavily focused on faux-Germany part of the setting, so I go south into the Border Princes - a mishmash of kingdoms that get glossed over in the corebook.

4) Star Trek and Star Wars is a challenge, especially as the later installments by retards have shat all over what made the original setting beloved. In these cases, I look to focus on TIME vs. LOCATION, aka putting the Star Wars game in the years after Return of the Jedi as the Empire crumbles and locating the game in a far cluster of my own planets.

A very fun Star Wars thought experiment is using the 1977-79 Marvel comics as the setting. AKA, the crazy Marvel creations based on only knowing the Star Wars movie. The reason is you get all the kickass visuals you could desire, great creative new places, and none of the baggage.
http://readallcomics.com/category/star-wars-legends-the-original-marvel-years-epic-collection/

5) I avoid canon junkies who can't handle their mouths. A buddy of mine loves FR with a passion (yes, he's a wanker), but he's also a GM so doesn't bring his FR knowledge to bear beyond what his character would know.

Regarding the examples used by the OP as having too much detail, especially Tekumel...

As someone who's run a Tekmel campaign the setting really isn't as hard as people think. They look at how much has been written about it and get intimidated, but the mistake here is thinking that you need to know all of this to run a Tekumel game.

I look at it this way.

No matter how much work is put into describing a fictional setting it will never be as detailed or complex as the real world. Does this mean that no GM can ever pick a place and period from real world history and run a game set there unless they have a PhD on that exact period? No. You can take as much or as little as you want, study in the exact level of detail you feel is needed and then ignore the rest.

The appeal of detailed settings is that if someone wants more detail then it's there. You aren't obliged to use it. Possibly you have a player at the table who knows more than you, but he can either work with you and accept mistakes or not get to play in this setting he likes after all.

For Tekumel, the only real change for players is learning to react to NPCs annoying them with "Demand Shamtla*!" rather than "I waste him with my crossbow!" (OK, so it's more than just that but memorising a few key details are what makes a setting stand out. )


(*And to forestall the inevitable question- Shamtla is a concept that combines the old idea of Weirgeld or Blood Money for murder with the modern American notion of throwing lawsuits around for anything people do that you don't like.)

Quote from: Tantavalist on March 25, 2021, 09:07:59 AM
Regarding the examples used by the OP as having too much detail, especially Tekumel...

As someone who's run a Tekmel campaign the setting really isn't as hard as people think. They look at how much has been written about it and get intimidated, but the mistake here is thinking that you need to know all of this to run a Tekumel game.

Yes, the GM can use as much or as little as they want. trying to separate what is from is not being used when you are a player is the main problem.

Quote
For Tekumel, the only real change for players is learning to react to NPCs annoying them with "Demand Shamtla*!" rather than "I waste him with my crossbow!" (OK, so it's more than just that but memorising a few key details are what makes a setting stand out. )

Shamtla is not in the original publication of EPT. So while it is huge in later releases of the setting, it changes the complete tone of the game. People that just have the original core rules would likely be playing an entirely different game then people that have the newer release.  EPT and Tekumel: are very different. Players could be very confused by the mixing of them.
IMHO

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 23, 2021, 08:45:28 PM
Which reminds me, when is this game of yours going to hit the market again?

To answer seriously and snarkily at the same time; when it's done. One of the advantages of this being my first endeavor and not seeking outside funding until the writing is done is that, if something isn't quite working, I can take the time to get it right.

I'm in the last section to write; one to aid new GMs in creating ruins (more accurately "adventure sites", but Ruin is the colloquialism I'm going with alongside Realms and Regions to define geographic elements); and I feel it's really important to get it right because that first adventure is your one chance to make a first impression.

A bit of designer philosophy here... I've said my game is more "big damned heroes" than "zero to hero", but even big damned heroes get outmatched in their stories and have to run sometimes; ex. the crew in Serenity when the Reavers show up.

The part I want to get right is that, with big damn heroes, if they do choose to run when outmatched, they should be able to survive.

I've spent a fair amount of my design work on the balance between health and damage so that, within a healthy range (ex. a level one party stumbles onto a level 5 monster) a PC at full health will survive a single turn of attacks from a single monster and still be able to act the following turn (i.e. like a big damned hero they get to make a choice to fight or flee).

It's not perfect; a lucky crit or a situation where a PC getting attacked twice or more is the only logical action for the monsters to take can happen; but as a general rule of "PCs get a turn after the monsters act where they can judge and still reasonably run away" it works.

The trick is when you move out of the isolated encounter and into a ruin/dungeon ecosystem you can get a particularly bad call by the players or GM could see multiple encounters happen at once (ex. the guards have time to sound a warning and so creatures from nearby rooms come running to assist) and because they're big damned heroes you want them to be able to survive if they make the right call of immediately retreating.

If they choose to stand and fight, they can live or die as the dice dictate... but death for big damned heroes should be because of more than a single bad choice or incident of bad luck. TPKs from one bad roll or miscalculation is more "zero to hero" style as I see it... and so I want the ruin building rules presented for new GMs to reinforce that sort of result.

I actually DO know the upper limit value for a "fighting retreat" style encounter where PCs effectively face multiple encounters one at a time without being able to stop and rest; because its one of many conditions I've tested for (it's about twice what a group can handle if you threw everything at them at once; i.e. if they could survive 10 guards all at once, they could survive about 20 in a fighting retreat).

I also know the approximate TPK threshold (enemies with total health of about 2.5x the parties' health).

So, basically, what I'm trying to find the best way to express is basically "don't pack more than about 4x the party's total health worth of monsters close enough that they can all respond to the PCs in a single encounter."

Four times the PC's health is a very difficult (but survivable with smart play, though they'll likely to be done as far as further encounters until after a good night's rest afterwards) fighting retreat.

Five times will probably be a TPK even if they do a fighting retreat (the only way to avoid a TPK at that point is flat out run and hope they give up pursuit before you run out of health).

Three times the PC's health might even be reversible into a win if retreating lets them drop some of the enemy while taking comparatively few hits themselves.

Note: there's nothing wrong per se about throwing that 5x or more setup at the party, particularly in a sandbox game where you've dropped plenty of clues they're marching into something well beyond their abilities. The point of the system though is to let the GM KNOW that's what's most likely going to happen in the situation that's been set up, so if that's NOT what they intended a challenge to be they can adjust it (up or down) in the adventure prep stage as opposed to feeling the need to fudge things at the table because results aren't lining up with expectations.

So anyway, the present bit I'm dealing with is how best to give a newbie GM the right information to set up their ruins to get the results they want without making it too confusing.

Right now my thinking is to break up the total "monster budget" (so to speak) into threat groups that would be isolated (by distance, because they're rivals, because they're golems and just don't care unless you enter the area they're programmed to protect) and create a sort of cap on the maximum threat the PCs might face at once (though nothing says that cap has to be survivable for the PCs at their present level in a sandbox game... but again; the GM deserves to KNOW that going in).

* * * *

Anyway, once that's done, I'll be doing one more front to back editing pass myself before getting the Kickstarter (for art, publication and a professional editing pass) organized. Then it's just dealing with art/printing deadlines for release.

All that said; if you don't mind the lack of newbie GM tools, I'm always looking for people willing to read/review/playtest the system. Player/Reader feedback has been the single greatest factor in improving the system throughout development. If anyone doesn't mind sharing their thoughts afterwards they can PM me and I'll hook them up with the current rules document.

Quote from: Greentongue on March 25, 2021, 02:02:51 PM
Shamtla is not in the original publication of EPT. So while it is huge in later releases of the setting, it changes the complete tone of the game. People that just have the original core rules would likely be playing an entirely different game then people that have the newer release.  EPT and Tekumel: are very different. Players could be very confused by the mixing of them.
IMHO

Moreso if you factor in the the "Adventures in Tekumel" set of booklets. I do not recall it being in those books either. I am not seeing it in the starter booklet so far.

Quote from: Greentongue on March 21, 2021, 05:11:42 PM
There are a number of settings that are great to read but when I go to play in them. they are like straight-jackets.
There is so much information available for them that I am second checking myself all the time.
Players have access to the information as well and have expectations on the setting that if not met them, they are disappointed.

How do you deal with this??

This obviously depends on the specific setting. But one thing I think is useful to is to only use the original setting book, and treat any future supplements as non-canon (that allows you to build on the foundation of its first presentation but not be shackled to a sprawling canon that was built over a decade. When I run Ravenloft, I sometimes just what it in Black Box mode for this reason.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan on March 26, 2021, 08:05:45 AM
This obviously depends on the specific setting. But one thing I think is useful to is to only use the original setting book, and treat any future supplements as non-canon ...

Seems like a good policy and may weed out the players that would be trouble later.

Quote from: Greentongue on March 26, 2021, 01:32:13 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan on March 26, 2021, 08:05:45 AM
This obviously depends on the specific setting. But one thing I think is useful to is to only use the original setting book, and treat any future supplements as non-canon ...

Seems like a good policy and may weed out the players that would be trouble later.

Another advantage is it preserves mystery in the setting where it needs to be because the GM effectively is the one generating new canon for the campaign. Players can't rely on knowledge in some later supplement that stats out an important NPC for example.

That and keep in mind that for some settings new books are just short of a new setting unto themselves. Forgotten Realms for example has had several. Dragonlance has as well.

Others like Known World vs Mystara, Ravenloft modules vs Ravenloft setting, or Star Frontiers vs Zebulons Guide ARE new settings. Or pretty much every edition of Gamma World.

Quote from: Omega on March 27, 2021, 03:29:26 AM
That and keep in mind that for some settings new books are just short of a new setting unto themselves. Forgotten Realms for example has had several. Dragonlance has as well.

Others like Known World vs Mystara, Ravenloft modules vs Ravenloft setting, or Star Frontiers vs Zebulons Guide ARE new settings. Or pretty much every edition of Gamma World.

And in Ravenloft it is complicated because many modules are essentially domain setting books (and which ones you choose to keep are pretty subjective: I really like the setting content in Feast of Goblyns and Castles Forlorn for Example).