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There rrally should ve a betting pool for how many "humans are the real monsters" domains.

Quote from: Slambo on March 01, 2021, 02:37:48 AM
There rrally should ve a betting pool for how many "humans are the real monsters" domains.

Classic Ravenloft was about humans who become monsters as a result of their own evil deeds. There were other types of creatures to be sure, but it was a pretty human focused setting I think*. I have to say I am not too optimistic about the new Ravenloft based on what I am seeing. I might just be getting old but CoS didn't quite do it for me. I may just be set in my ways and like the old Ravenloft stuff (camp and all). Seems like there is a lot of shaking things up for the sake of shaking things up. I am not sure all the gender swapping makes great sense when you consider there were quite a few female dark lords already (and a number of important female NPCs). Maybe they just advanced the timeline and these are their daughters or grandaughters, which would make more sense to me than just swapping them. Also prefer my Falkovnia to not be all about zombies (like it how it was originally presented in the black box). 

*Edit: Just to clarify, Ravenloft is a setting about monsters, just many of them began as human, or are a product of human evil. The domains are inhabited mostly by humans. That sort of thing.

There is, however, a strong thematic difference between Ravenloft's "monsters who represent the dark side of humanity" and the contemporary "human society/human beings are inherently monstrous, while those typically considered 'monsters' are fundamentally blameless victims." It's the difference between 'Dracula was human once' and 'Van Helsing is the story's real villain.'

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 01, 2021, 10:04:52 AM
There is, however, a strong thematic difference between Ravenloft's "monsters who represent the dark side of humanity" and the contemporary "human society/human beings are inherently monstrous, while those typically considered 'monsters' are fundamentally blameless victims." It's the difference between 'Dracula was human once' and 'Van Helsing is the story's real villain.'

Yeah this is more what im expecting to find in it.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 01, 2021, 10:04:52 AM
There is, however, a strong thematic difference between Ravenloft's "monsters who represent the dark side of humanity" and the contemporary "human society/human beings are inherently monstrous, while those typically considered 'monsters' are fundamentally blameless victims." It's the difference between 'Dracula was human once' and 'Van Helsing is the story's real villain.'

I see what you mean. Yes the monsters in Ravenloft, while they are often sympathetic and tragic, are still monsters. Strahd is a good example of that. The other angle can be fun when it isn't over done, but I think part of the problem is it is sort of expected, and rather being done because it is a fun and interesting twists, it is done to signal the political and social views of the writer. I remember I had a friend who also liked the Van Richten books and he did have a pet theory he used to talk about where Van Richten is actually delusional and killing innocent people who are not vampires. I liked the idea because he presented it in a comedic light and it was the opposite of how Van Richten in the books. But it wasn't like I thought that was how he should be presented in the core books, and it wasn't like I thought his assessment was accurate or morally better than what we got in the books. It was just a fun take. Fun takes are fine, but sometimes I feel like the trope twisting thing is becoming a requirement and a baseline for what is considered good design or good storytelling, and really it doesn't tell me anything about how good a book is just because tropes are inverted (it is just as lazy to go down a list and invert tropes, as it is to go down a list and make sure you are including every trope). When it comes to Ravenloft, for me I want something like what we got in the black boxed set. I don't think I've ever had such a strong reaction to gaming material before or since.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 01, 2021, 10:04:52 AM
There is, however, a strong thematic difference between Ravenloft's "monsters who represent the dark side of humanity" and the contemporary "human society/human beings are inherently monstrous, while those typically considered 'monsters' are fundamentally blameless victims." It's the difference between 'Dracula was human once' and 'Van Helsing is the story's real villain.'

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. An SJW take on Ravenloft should largely be one where the Adventurers are the evil ones, if they act like adventurers are supposed to act.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 01, 2021, 08:23:45 PM
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. An SJW take on Ravenloft should largely be one where the Adventurers are the evil ones, if they act like adventurers are supposed to act.

   I'm listening to the Ravenloft portion of the show now, and it sounds like you and I are on the same page: The thematic underpinnings of Gothic horror are at odds with the SJW view of the universe. Since the Gothic is fundamentally Romantic, and the SJW are in the French Revolutionary tradition in many ways, that's not terribly surprising.

I'm not sure if Romanticism and French Revolution are somehow inherently opposed.
Besides many Gothic villain can be shown as quite fitting SJW standards - what is Strahd if not privileged white male sexual predator after all

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 01, 2021, 09:33:59 PM
I'm not sure if Romanticism and French Revolution are somehow inherently opposed.
Besides many Gothic villain can be shown as quite fitting SJW standards - what is Strahd if not privileged white male sexual predator after all

  Well, the thematic disconnect is that Gothic is about the fallibility of man and the shadows of the past, while the SJWs and Revolutionaries are about perfectibility (whether individual or social) and beginning the world anew.

Overall yes indeed - nevertheless due to neopuritanical attitudes of SJWs Gothic villains sort of suits their purposes as well. At least white males ones (ergo most of prominent ones).

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 01, 2021, 09:39:50 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 01, 2021, 09:33:59 PM
I'm not sure if Romanticism and French Revolution are somehow inherently opposed.
Besides many Gothic villain can be shown as quite fitting SJW standards - what is Strahd if not privileged white male sexual predator after all

  Well, the thematic disconnect is that Gothic is about the fallibility of man and the shadows of the past, while the SJWs and Revolutionaries are about perfectibility (whether individual or social) and beginning the world anew.

Yes, SJW is the bastardisation of the Enlightenment heresy of Marxism. Enlightenment Rationalists in Gothic fiction are either misguided foolish protagonists who soon wise up, or cold-hearted scientist-villains likely destroyed by their own creations.

I'd say Marxism itself is bastard of both Englightement and Romanticism, with SJW doubling on that.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 02, 2021, 10:40:02 AM
I'd say Marxism itself is bastard of both Englightement and Romanticism, with SJW doubling on that.

In my PhD I call the Rousseau-ean world view of the French Revolution 'Romantic' - because its belief in the Perfectability of Man and abstract idealism is opposed to that of Locke & the pragmatic English empiricists. But both are Enlightenment philosophies; and 19th century Marxism is a progression of that 18th century Enlightenment philosophy. Modern SJWism derives from Marxism of course.

Whereas Gothic Romanticism is different, I think. It's not a philosophy, but it's definitely Reactionary. It tends to be framed as a cautionary redress to Enlightenment thinking. You beat the vampires with Faith, not Science - though good tactics never hurt.

Hard to say to me. While darkness and pessimism of Gothic is certainly taking aways of revolutionary prometheism, this is still part of romanticism movement which I see as part of overall revolutionary hydra - like in gnosticism you have ahrimanic aspect of it in form of cold rationalism of Englightement and inward spiritualist side of Romanticism, but both are revolutionary towards ancient regime and form of beings. Basic Romantic spirituality is mostly luciferian (in gnostic term) in nature.

I think both can lead into their darker forms - which are better due to less prometheic/optimistic vision of mankind and so on.

Nevertheless I'd say modern SJW are closer to Romantic version than Englightened - as much as they like to use authority of science, they are utterly inward centred, and their emotional side is all for them.

I mean in moden fiction you beat vampires due to Empathy, Tolerance and Friendship - not due to Quantum Physics...