They're welcome to my old rulebooks, as long as they are willing to pay cover price or eBay price, whichever is highest. I will photocopy them first, of course.
In the mean time my orcs are still evil and my drow are still black (not pseudo-African, but pure #000000 Krampus black). And Evil.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1138091It also misses the point that you don't need to invent a separate breed of good-aligned planar orcs just to have good (or non-evil) orcs in your campaign. You can already include a tribe of non-evil actual green skinned orcs in your campaign if that is what you want. Non-evil orcs fully integrated into mainstream society already even exist in some published settings, including Al-Qadim and Eberron. These things already exist. It's a moot point. This is literally a non-issue outside of trying to force non-evil orcs as the universal default rather than just having non-evil orc tribes in your campaign or playing Al-Qadim.

That's because the motives of the outraged has nothing really to do with the game - it has to do with crafting a mechanism to go after people with Wrongthink.

It's the "Retard" problem. You can shift the name - Imbecile, Moron, Idiot, etc etc. each one eventually outraging people... until the term du-jour becomes taboo... they'll come up with Cognitively Challenged or Learning Disabled or whatever... it still means the same thing. All of which is besides the point, which is to control the language and means by which you engage with such ideas on their terms.

Orcs = Blacks to THEM. So now Orcs are taboo... enter the Orcs/Blacks that have been saved by SJWs - AngelOrks! Then ? Enter the New Orc Stand-in... which soon they will make analogous to being Black people in their own minds... and rinse/repeat. Each rinsing being a purge of players for Wrongthinking, further eroding the fanbase. And so it goes.

Quote from: tenbones;1138075This misses the point. Orcs exist for the purposes of narrative conflict. Just like playing chess requires someone to play the dark side, and the other play the light side. The ideology is infringing on the purpose of the game.

Back in the day we had the mustache twirling Klingons the dastardly enemies of the good Federation. Then in the movies they gained a bony forehead and became more violent as well as dastardly. Finally in TNG they became more well rounded as a warrior race founded on honor. With some Klingons more honorable than others.

The Orc also went through a similar metamorphosis especially with the efforts of Games Workshop and Warhammer. But what sealed the deal was the advent of World of Warcraft which developed it own take  on the ideas of Warhammer Orcs.

So if an author wants to present Orcs as a honorable warrior race or any other wrinkle so be it. Whether it something born of their own idea or a result of community pressure it doesn't matter much. The taste of a wide audience changes over time and it will change again.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1137943I don't understand why there is so much resistance to the depiction of more nuanced, non-inherently-evil orcs (or other humanoid races). It's been a thing for a few decades now.

You ask why there is resistance? Because it is old hat by this point. Orcs as honorable warriors with and they act the way they do because of reasons has been done twice now in two widely popular incarnations (Warhammer and Warcraft). There is a bunch of less popular interpretations of Orcs that offer different takes as well. So whatever Wizards and Paizo comes it not likely going to be particularly original or distinct. I could be wrong but the odds are not good at this point.

My own take in the Majestic Wilderlands has orcs as violent evil tribal thugs. But there is a reason for why that is and it is tragic as it a result of a magical alterations. This tragic aspect doesn't minimize the fact that as a culture orcs are near impossible to co-exist with. Although there are individual orcs that do just fine. Among other things the alternation shifted where their personality traits are centered at. They still have a range and not carbon-copy clones of each other.

To me that more interesting and gives the traditional conflict an added dimension. And most of my players appreciated this naunces since I introduced in the mid 80s.

Now if Paizo and Wizards comes up with something interesting like this then great. If not it wouldn't be the first time orcs have been mucked around with and it fell flat.

As a resident experienced hand with all things Wilderlands. I will remind people that on Map 2 Barbarian Altanis, and Map 12 Isle of the Blest that there are three lawful good orc villages within 50 miles of each. Positioned apart in a way that you couldn't just say it was a single lawful good tribe or nation at work.

Part of the resistance to good orcs is simply that its idiots trying to force people to do things they were doing long long ago allready and being told that they never ever did and they are wacist!

Of course people are going to fight.

Funny, the whole orcs = black people thing has inspired me. Next time I use orcs I'm going to give them a Shaka equivalent who brings discipline and organisation to them.

Not a rabble of chaotic orcs but organised units who use tactics and discipline to fight, coupled with the orcs natural ferocity, a terrifying foe.

They have the numbers, they have the strength, they have the organisation, the Orc empire is coming. They want tribute and they will take it from your corpses if you resist.

"You might decide not to pay the tribute I demand. I am lord of the strongest empire the world has ever known and I will have my tribute; Elves, your forest will burn, Dwarves, we will dig you out of your holes or seal you in, humans, so soft, so decadent, will be crushed, your cities broken, your people enslaved. None will defy me."

Their time has come, they have the strength to take what they will, morality doesn't come in to it, this is their destiny.

Quote from: tenbones;1138177That's because the motives of the outraged has nothing really to do with the game - it has to do with crafting a mechanism to go after people with Wrongthink.

It's the "Retard" problem. You can shift the name - Imbecile, Moron, Idiot, etc etc. each one eventually outraging people... until the term du-jour becomes taboo... they'll come up with Cognitively Challenged or Learning Disabled or whatever... it still means the same thing. All of which is besides the point, which is to control the language and means by which you engage with such ideas on their terms.

Orcs = Blacks to THEM. So now Orcs are taboo... enter the Orcs/Blacks that have been saved by SJWs - AngelOrks! Then ? Enter the New Orc Stand-in... which soon they will make analogous to being Black people in their own minds... and rinse/repeat. Each rinsing being a purge of players for Wrongthinking, further eroding the fanbase. And so it goes.

AngelOrcs!!!  Ha!!!

It has nothing to do with the game.  Everyone and everything must be demonized.

I am inspired to make a new campaign centered around an orc invasion using 1E Oriental Adventures...
 
I just need an orc warlord...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnsg0jDbHk4

That works!

So has anyone from WOTC actually made any response to this at all?

Quote from: Altheus;1138215Funny, the whole orcs = black people thing has inspired me. Next time I use orcs I'm going to give them a Shaka equivalent who brings discipline and organisation to them.

Not a rabble of chaotic orcs but organised units who use tactics and discipline to fight, coupled with the orcs natural ferocity, a terrifying foe.

The funny thing is that you will have come full circle. The ORIGINAL orcs in Lord of the Rings, at least the ones in Sauron's military, were organised enough to have individual service numbers just like modern-day soldiers, and individuals from different units would be assigned together for specific missions. It's all there in the dialogue.

Quote from: Premier;1138302The funny thing is that you will have come full circle. The ORIGINAL orcs in Lord of the Rings, at least the ones in Sauron's military, were organised enough to have individual service numbers just like modern-day soldiers, and individuals from different units would be assigned together for specific missions. It's all there in the dialogue.

Orcs in AD&D 1e were Lawful Evil, which would fit that model perfectly. I think the switch to Chaotic Evil was a 3e thing.

Quote from: RandyB;1138307Orcs in AD&D 1e were Lawful Evil, which would fit that model perfectly. I think the switch to Chaotic Evil was a 3e thing.

Holmes did it first.

I think the problem started when TSR and then especially WOTC changed orcs from these boar headed beast folk to increasingly essentially big brawny elves with tusks.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1138328Holmes did it first.

I never noticed that until you mentioned it. Holmes took Chaotic orcs from OD&D and made them Chaotic Evil, while Gygax made them Lawful Evil.

Huh, so Tolkien's elves are just elves on a high protein diet, anabolic steroids, and an intensive training regime?