Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133439Just what the tin says.

Anytime a CoC has been demanded and then adopted it has led to turmoil and even bankruptcy (see the Gnome Foundation).

Well, it's the TTRPGs turn now, this will only accelerate the destruction of some publishers.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/315105/Code-of-Conduct-for-RPG-Projects?manufacturers_id=12327

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133455A solution is to preemptively adopt the NCoC

OK, I've downloaded and read both.

The CoC is an invitation to a shitshow. Let's say that you were the project owner and have given an artist a small advance to commission some work for your project (pay in full upon completion) and the art is overdue, placing the entire project behind schedule. None of that business process is covered by the CoC. If the project owner contacts the artist and asks "Where is my artwork?", the closest the CoC comes is to treat this as harassment. Which does nothing but cause the project owner's problem to increase to potentially epic proportions.This CoC isn't designed to help, but to hinder work on a project. I'd really question the worth of a contributor requiring one of these before working because it is all common sense that people should already know.

Now take a look at the NCoC

Quote from: NCoCWhat is NCoC?
No Code Of Conduct is a groundbreaking new idea. Designed to help you find communities and projects that will not get stuck endlessly debating how members should behave in their communities, only to be found to never be fully resolved to anyone's liking.

What if... we all agreed?
We are all adults. Capable of having adult discussions.

We accept everyones contributions, we don't care if you're liberal or conservative, black or white, straight or gay, or anything in between! In fact, we won't bring it up, or ask. We simply do not care.

Nothing else matters!

Q: Great! How do I add this to my project?
Simply copy CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md into the root directory of your project. You may modify it to your needs.

Q: How do I promote No Code of Conduct?
Feel free to talk about, discuss, and promote No Code of Conduct anywhere you wish, and use the hashtag #NCoC on Twitter.

Q: What if, this makes me feel discriminated against?
If you feel this way simply because we do not have a code of conduct, it is hard for anyone to relate to you. This is not intended to discriminate against anyone. Simply because we don't babysit people on our site to make sure they treat you with respect, does not mean we hope you feel unwelcome, or that you are treated without respect. That is just not something we have time for.

Q: Without a CoC, how would I possibly feel safe engaging in your community? How would I raise a red flag if I am mistreated?
The way you would go about this in any other discussion forum. If you limit yourself to participating in things that only have codes of conduct, then you're limiting yourself as a human being on this marvelous place we call the internet. It is not this community's place to care about individual feelings. We leave that to the individuals. The internet is a big place, you should prepare yourself to deal with it.

Q: If you don't have a CoC, this will surely be the end of your project, and the end of some talented individuals contributing to it!
There is plenty of proof that not having a CoC is a workable solution. While the linux community for example may not be warm and helpful, there is nothing wrong or offensive about it, and you certainly will not be harassed unless you harass people there.

Q: What about non-internet communications, such as a place of work, or a conference?
These understandably are different. Often sane communities will have a CoC that is unique to their physical location, and/or event. In different parts of the world, the needs are different (see "he" vs "she" vs "they" vs people that do not have English as their primary language). We are talking about the internet here, not physical meet ups, and that requires we do not care about the unimportant parts of how people talk.

Q: Without a CoC, how would this community be welcoming to newcomers, and not become vile, intimidating, or have some other type of unwelcome agenda?
We strive to lead by example. We feel there are enough level-headed adults here to back you up. However, if someone tells you you are stupid, or wrong. Stop. Think. Does this have anything to do with your race, region, religion, or anything else not related to this project? This is a tricky one. Have you considered, that they are either having a bad day, are a bad listener, or possibly, you are wrong? If you feel you're not wrong, please, by all means, reply. We love discussion! We love our members. We are confident if you are a level-headed adult, you will be treated like one. Other level-headed adults want to hear from you.

Q: Your name is offensive. CoC sounds like Cock, and I feel that this is a group of white males that is trying to downplay the seriousness of this issue in our community, and I boycott your movement, and am going to tell others to as well!
That wasn't really a question, but we will answer it anyways. This is an example of starting a fire where there does not need to be one. Try to be more tolerant of others and not read into their deep inner views. We have said clearly over and over that we don't care who you are, where you come from, or where you're going. We value intelligent discussion on our topic, and that's it. If you want to not use any community that adopts NCoC, that is fine. But please do listen to the content, and do not read too far in-between the lines. It simply stands for No Code of Conduct.

Q: Oh no, it has definitely happened! Someone has treated me unfairly, and I'm 100% sure its related to something about who I am, and not related to what I have said or contributed directly.
Email that person, and try to work it out. Email the owners of the community, and alert them. Whatever you do, do not make a scene, as that will burden the entire community with your issue. If it's truly a problem and you're truly an asset to the community then you will probably get an email back. Sometimes, you have to be the bigger person. Say your piece privately, and don't dwell on it. Remember, this is not the time or place to start these kind of discussions. If someone else did this to you, that is unclassy, but there is only so much a moderator and personal discussion can accomplish. I am afraid that bringing to a larger group will be of poor form, and not helpful.

Q: What about off-topic chatter?
Off topic chatter should be discouraged, but not censored. NCoC is targeting things like open source projects and public online communities based around specific topics.

Q: How can I contribute to your project or community when I see someone said something on a different site or community which directly makes me feel awful?
We are not in the business of policing people's personal lives. Hopefully they also don't care about that when they are here. Part of not discriminating against people, is not discriminating against people. This is not world court. Sometimes people have different views. Just because they express this elsewhere, doesn't mean we don't care. If you are so stuck that a member of our community does or is something you don't like elsewhere, then you should probably not be here.

Q: As a community manager or leader, what happens when the mob arrives, or when someone starts to engage in discussion that could lead to more endless discussion?
Lock, and ban your way to freedom. This is unfortunate. Try to not delete anything, or you will be accused of censorship. But you have no other choice. Do not engage. Abort, abort abort! You should really be very brief, vague, and closed off in these discussions. Say something like: "hey, this is not the place to discuss this, please reach out to each other privately or on another medium to discuss it. This group is strictly about topics relating to $YOUR_TOPIC". End.

Q: WTF, the discussion was locked, and/or I can't reply!?
Once again, we are not going to tolerate our community being overridden by the mob. If this starts to happen, we will nuke, delete, lock, close, ban, and do whatever we have to do to put the fire out. These discussions drag on and on and on, and they don't make communities better.

Q: Why don't you care about my feelings?
We are not a support group for human emotion. We are a community that strives to focus around our topics. Anything else takes away from that.

It simply means, act like an adult and you will be treated like an adult.
Fucking brilliant!

I'll take two, please!

Code of Conduct: I swear by Gygax's loaded dice that I will show up on time, and bring along snacks, dice and my wits!

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1133742Can't tell if trolling or just retarded

Don't you have a Crass concert to attend, you pretentious loser?

utterly serious, not going to go softly softly around the dangerous psycho sexual disease that is conservatism any more, to many rapes and murders because of it, every single say, to good a network of cover up and obfuscation around the malignant, cannibalistic cult,  now remember, you want your conservative badge, and the daily ration of kiddie porn, you have to say your heil putins, the irredeemable evil of conservatism is a clear and present danger to every child on the planet, they can't control themselves in the mindless rape frenzy of the republican.

Quote from: Almost_Useless;1133693I'm sure you could convince RPGPundit to do it for a reasonable price.

Yep, he'd be my first choice.

Imagine all the SJW tears. Nice!

Quote from: Taggie;1133798utterly serious, not going to go softly softly around the dangerous psycho sexual disease that is conservatism any more, to many rapes and murders because of it, every single say, to good a network of cover up and obfuscation around the malignant, cannibalistic cult,  now remember, you want your conservative badge, and the daily ration of kiddie porn, you have to say your heil putins, the irredeemable evil of conservatism is a clear and present danger to every child on the planet, they can't control themselves in the mindless rape frenzy of the republican.

It's pretty clear that you're not a stable person, but I'm a hopeless optimist, so this is a WARNING.

You're totally welcome to be as liberal as you like, but anyone engaging in slanders against other members of this forum that suggest the things you suggested above will be banned, regardless of politics.

Don't post in this thread again, and don't post this sort of garbage anywhere again, or you'll be banned. I'd say the exact same thing to a conservative poster saying anything like the above to a liberal poster.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1133802It's pretty clear that you're not a stable person, but I'm a hopeless optimist, so this is a WARNING.

You're totally welcome to be as liberal as you like, but anyone engaging in slanders against other members of this forum that suggest the things you suggested above will be banned, regardless of politics.

Don't post in this thread again, and don't post this sort of garbage anywhere again, or you'll be banned. I'd say the exact same thing to a conservative poster saying anything like the above to a liberal poster.

Greetings!

Excellent, Pundit!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

QuoteLet's say that you were the project owner and have given an artist a small advance to commission some work for your project (pay in full upon completion) and the art is overdue, placing the entire project behind schedule. None of that business process is covered by the CoC. If the project owner contacts the artist and asks "Where is my artwork?", the closest the CoC comes is to treat this as harassment.

The project owner and artist should be working to a mutually agreed contract that covers what happens in the event of delay or non-delivery. It's the contract's job to cover that kind of shit, not a code of conduct's. If project owners don't want to be bothered with a contract, and work on trust and prayers, that's fine, but when stuff turns to shit, then the project owner is going to have problems, because there's nothing in place that shows what the agreement was, that the artist consented to those terms, and what the recourse will be if the contract terms aren't met.

Aside from that, I agree that the CoC on DTRPG is a shit show. It does throw up some potentially interesting use cases though. If companies rush to adopt this CoC, then the clause around 'Professional Behavior' is going to cause real issues for any positive discrimination projects, where they court contributions solely from minorities and marginalized groups: "The work environment will be professional. The conditions and work offered to team members will be based on skill and professional factors. When team members are offered opportunities, they will not be contingent on anything other than professional considerations." (my emphasis).

So deliberately restricting contributions only to minorities, whatever they may be, will likely violate the CoC, unless it can be shown that being of a minority is actually a 'professional consideration', and the project's success is contingent on contributors being from that minority. Basically, if you adopt this CoC, then you're also going to need to get a lawyer to look over any projects you're thinking of launching that carry any kind of positive bias, to ensure you're not violating your own code.

Adopting this code opens up all flavors of canned worms. For small companies and one man bands (especially SJW teeny tiny publishers), adopting the code as it is may be more problematic than they think. For the big players like WotC, they'll have their own corporate codes anyway, so why bother with this?

Quote from: Taggie;1133798utterly serious, not going to go softly softly around the dangerous psycho sexual disease that is conservatism any more, to many rapes and murders because of it, every single say, to good a network of cover up and obfuscation around the malignant, cannibalistic cult,  now remember, you want your conservative badge, and the daily ration of kiddie porn, you have to say your heil putins, the irredeemable evil of conservatism is a clear and present danger to every child on the planet, they can't control themselves in the mindless rape frenzy of the republican.

You really are insane, aren't you? Calm down.

I'm not a conservative, btw.

Quote from: Taggie;1133798utterly serious, not going to go softly softly around the dangerous psycho sexual disease that is conservatism any more, to many rapes and murders because of it, every single say, to good a network of cover up and obfuscation around the malignant, cannibalistic cult,  now remember, you want your conservative badge, and the daily ration of kiddie porn, you have to say your heil putins, the irredeemable evil of conservatism is a clear and present danger to every child on the planet, they can't control themselves in the mindless rape frenzy of the republican.

I want to see this world in your head in animated form.

Quote from: tenbones;1133873I want to see this world in your head in animated form.

I bet it is CHAZtastic!

Quote from: Taggie;1133798utterly serious, not going to go softly softly around the dangerous psycho sexual disease that is conservatism any more, to many rapes and murders because of it, every single say, to good a network of cover up and obfuscation around the malignant, cannibalistic cult,  now remember, you want your conservative badge, and the daily ration of kiddie porn, you have to say your heil putins, the irredeemable evil of conservatism is a clear and present danger to every child on the planet, they can't control themselves in the mindless rape frenzy of the republican.

I really love how the only bigotry that's acceptable is your own.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1133777Code of Conduct: I swear by Gygax's loaded dice that I will show up on time, and bring along snacks, dice and my wits!

OK, I take it back. This one I fully support.

I don't see how DTRPG *could* legal require any publisher to adhere to any CoC during the creation of content.
AKA, DTRPG is a sales platform for content. It isn't involved in the production phase.

What is legally possible is freelancers could demand publishers agree to a certain CoC before doing work...
...but that's when the publisher just says NO. Few freelancers can impose terms on publishers.  

We just had a freelancer try to strong arm our company to accept their terms. It was comical. Unless your skill set is rare and your work product excellent, most freelancers can be replaced like widgets.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133935I don't see how DTRPG *could* legal require any publisher to adhere to any CoC during the creation of content.
AKA, DTRPG is a sales platform for content. It isn't involved in the production phase.

What is legally possible is freelancers could demand publishers agree to a certain CoC before doing work...
...but that's when the publisher just says NO. Few freelancers can impose terms on publishers.  

We just had a freelancer try to strong arm our company to accept their terms. It was comical. Unless your skill set is rare and your work product excellent, most freelancers can be replaced like widgets.

A distributor can choose not to deal with a producer for many reasons (or, sometimes, for no reason at all). When that distributor has as much influence as DTRPG does for RPG pdfs, that can amount to blackballing.

Defined expectations are useful and codes of conduct define expectations.  I think that's part of the problem our society is struggling with right now.  A long time ago we had defined expectations that were very rigid and classist and religiously based and we decided to jetison them but never really put anything back in their place.  So, now we have people who are shocked that in the absence of codes of conduct people didn't know how to act and did stupid and evil things.  In principle I belive that people need to govern themselves but it doesn't help to not know what's expected.  Of course, then you get into the question of who should define those expectations.  The answer is, of course, me.  I don't understand how everybody else can get the same answer and be so absolutely wrong at the same time.