Quote from: Dracones;1133734You can add Fate Core to the list. Evil Hat is fairly SJW as far as I'm aware.

You mean the ripoff of Fudge? Yeah, they contributed a lot...

Quote from: Itachi;1133489The question begging to be questioned here is: What's the point of this thread? Have black people ever contributed to  the hobby? Have gay people? Poor people? Religious?

WTF people.

Ha! A moral relativist. The worst kind of person.

Quote from: tenbones;1133635Edit: seriously, I don't care. If anything, the silver-lining on this shit-colored cloud that has descended on our hobby (and culture at large) is that it shows many people how stupid humans really are and serves as something we should endeavor to avoid in the future. Assuming there is a future from this.)

if I'm recalling correctly, me and my friends originally got into gaming to remain separated from stupid people. Wargaming and roleplaying games were hobbies that they didn't understand, weren't interested in (Becuase they could not gain any power over others, by playing, unless it was a well earned victory in a simulated battle or player versus player confrontation), and so originally left it to us. We didn't consciously seek to be separated from the general population, but understanding what really happened in a real battle, or understanding how group dynamics, teamwork, and leadership could effect a victory (in a fantasy setting) were subjects of endless fascination for us.

It was only much later that the general population intervened, and started cramming "their" culture down our throats, that the gaming hobby (i.e. both wargames and rpg games) became such a contentious environment. Things that are issues now, weren't even on our cultural Radar back in the day. Also am almost certain it shouldn't be on our cultural Radar now, since the game should be the focus, not the f&^ked up culture that was never part of the game in the first place, except as we allowed it to be included in order to provide a specific moral, or objective lesson, for our players.

Quote from: Dracones;1133734You can add Fate Core to the list. Evil Hat is fairly SJW as far as I'm aware.

Well, thread author has his answer. Eclipse Phase, Fate and Dungeon World are influential enough and considered quality games by their target audience.

Quote from: Itachi;1133764Eclipse Phase, Fate and Dungeon World are influential enough and considered quality games by their target audience.

Doesn't matter that they are shit games whose popularity is artificially inflated via RPGNet, Reddit, and BGG.

It is like D&D 4E, all of the "true believer" 4rons thought it was great and an excellent continuation of the D&D tradition, with the backing of Hasbro marketing department via Organized Play any disagreement with that opinion was often shouted down. Now look at how D&D 4E is viewed by the hobby. The worm turns.

Quote from: Itachi;1133706Ha! we disagree on the matter but this is very good. Makes total sense. Thanks.

Its beause over the decades these things we call SJW now have jumped from left to right a couple of times. They tend to infest whatever side they either think is winning, or the side they think is the underdog they can whip into a frenzy with sympathy scams.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1133747if I'm recalling correctly, me and my friends originally got into gaming to remain separated from stupid people. Wargaming and roleplaying games were hobbies that they didn't understand, weren't interested in (Becuase they could not gain any power over others, by playing, unless it was a well earned victory in a simulated battle or player versus player confrontation), and so originally left it to us. We didn't consciously seek to be separated from the general population, but understanding what really happened in a real battle, or understanding how group dynamics, teamwork, and leadership could effect a victory (in a fantasy setting) were subjects of endless fascination for us.

It was only much later that the general population intervened, and started cramming "their" culture down our throats, that the gaming hobby (i.e. both wargames and rpg games) became such a contentious environment. Things that are issues now, weren't even on our cultural Radar back in the day. Also am almost certain it shouldn't be on our cultural Radar now, since the game should be the focus, not the f&^ked up culture that was never part of the game in the first place, except as we allowed it to be included in order to provide a specific moral, or objective lesson, for our players.

Isn't that how all good things get ruined? You find your jam - make friends, then somehow the philistines invade.

Quote from: Altheus;1133565Dungeon World, simplest fantasy rpg to run ever.

Perhaps an honestly good answer to the thread title, but then some people say that DW isn't really an RPG.  I try not to be dogmatic about whether it is, or not.  I like the 2d6 mechanic, and DW greatly simplifies monsters and hit points; but in play it's like a different flavor of D&D.  Or perhaps D&D is like ice cream, and DW is like ice milk.

Quote from: Razor 007;1133881Or perhaps D&D is like ice cream, and DW is like ice milk.

Ice milk from a goat that has been on a steady diet of wild onions......

Quote from: Razor 007;1133881Perhaps an honestly good answer to the thread title, but then some people say that DW isn't really an RPG.  I try not to be dogmatic about whether it is, or not.  I like the 2d6 mechanic, and DW greatly simplifies monsters and hit points; but in play it's like a different flavor of D&D.  Or perhaps D&D is like ice cream, and DW is like ice milk.

Never heard such a thing. I've played Dungeon World with my kids a couple times by the book and it's the same as any other RPG I've ever played. There's a Gm, players play alter egos on a fictional world, taking decisions as if in their place, and rolling dice to see if they succeed or not. That's it.

I still prefer D&D for what it does, though.

Quote from: Razor 007;1133881Perhaps an honestly good answer to the thread title, but then some people say that DW isn't really an RPG.  I try not to be dogmatic about whether it is, or not.  I like the 2d6 mechanic, and DW greatly simplifies monsters and hit points; but in play it's like a different flavor of D&D.  Or perhaps D&D is like ice cream, and DW is like ice milk.

The idea of a 2d6 mechanic intrigues me--at least from a game design PoV. But based on what I red glancing through Stars Without Numbers at least (not sure how much it is like Dungeon World) I didn't like how they handled it mechanically. It seemed too much like they were trying to be B/X D&D, but with toned down 3e skills and 2d6 for rolls, using the same 3-18 attribute range, but with a +2 modifier max.

Which begs the question: Why use 3-18 scores if the only use you get out of them is a +1 bonus at 14+ or a +2 bonus at 18+? WTF is the rest of the score range for? Why not just get rid of the scores an focus on a -2 to +2 modifier?

If was going to build something using 2d6 rolls I'd probably go more similar to Interlock system (roll + Attribute + Skill), but maybe with lower ability ranges (Interlock goes up to 10 for attributes and skills, which IMO is a bit too high, but not by much). Like maybe 0-6 for attributes (3 average) and skills, and an average target number of 10 for rolls. And maybe include extra bonuses from advantages/disadvantages or temporary buffer effects.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1133896The idea of a 2d6 mechanic intrigues me--at least from a game design PoV. But based on what I red glancing through Stars Without Numbers at least (not sure how much it is like Dungeon World) I didn't like how they handled it mechanically. It seemed too much like they were trying to be B/X D&D, but with toned down 3e skills and 2d6 for rolls, using the same 3-18 attribute range, but with a +2 modifier max.

Which begs the question: Why use 3-18 scores if the only use you get out of them is a +1 bonus at 14+ or a +2 bonus at 18+? WTF is the rest of the score range for? Why not just get rid of the scores an focus on a -2 to +2 modifier?

If was going to build something using 2d6 rolls I'd probably go more similar to Interlock system (roll + Attribute + Skill), but maybe with lower ability ranges (Interlock goes up to 10 for attributes and skills, which IMO is a bit too high, but not by much). Like maybe 0-6 for attributes (3 average) and skills, and an average target number of 10 for rolls. And maybe include extra bonuses from advantages/disadvantages or temporary buffer effects.

Dungeon World has nothing to do with SWN. It uses a 2d6 roll where:

10+ you succeed
7-9 you succeed but at a cost or complication
6- you fail and shit happens

While the roll is modified by stats that go from -3 to +3 (EDIT: which is EXACTLY what you suggested above). So if you have Strenght +2 you roll 2d6 and add +2 to the result, and see what range (above) the result falls. Thats it.

The big differential of Dungeon World (and PbtA I general, the family of games that use it) is the 7-9 range, "succeed at a cost", also called Fail Forward by some. It makes the experience somewhat different to RPGs that uses a binary pass-fail range of results, and makes for situations that "snowball" from one another. Lots of people like the feeling that ensues (we had a lot of fun) and lots of people don't. It's somewhat divisive.

Anyway, it's a RPG through and through.

Quote from: Itachi;1133898Dungeon World has nothing to do with SWN. It uses a 2d6 roll where:

10+ you succeed
7-9 you succeed but at a cost or complication
6- you fail and shit happens

While the roll is modified by stats that go from -3 to +3 (EDIT: which is EXACTLY what you suggested above). So if you have Strenght +2 you roll 2d6 and add +2 to the result, and see what range (above) the result falls. Thats it.

The big differential of Dungeon World (and PbtA I general, the family of games that use it) is the 7-9 range, "succeed at a cost", also called Fail Forward by some. It makes the experience somewhat different to RPGs that uses a binary pass-fail range of results, and makes for situations that "snowball" from one another. Lots of people like the feeling that ensues (we had a lot of fun) and lots of people don't. It's somewhat divisive.

Anyway, it's a RPG through and through.

Ah, that sounds better. Do characters have skills at least?

I don't normally use Fail Forward per se, unless I want PCs to succeed, but make things difficult for them if they don't pass a test (like maybe they eventually find what they were looking for, but not before more enemies show up). So I'm not fundamentally against it, but it's not something I'd use as default, only on a case by case, in situations where eventual success is almost inevitable, but complications are possible or could spice things up.

I usually prefer Degrees of Success, which can be somewhat similar on a Partial Success/Fail result.

@VisionStorm, yes there are "moves" that work like skills but in a more archetype-specific fashion. Here, some sample classes and their moves ( for Masks, another game in same engine as DW):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pPX5-GqiUll6fk6CWqn35HTr86pmuFnj/view?usp=drivesdk

I like Fate. I like what it tries to do. Do I agree with the politics of its authors? No. That's why I regarded The Fate Horror Toolkit as mostly being crap and a waste of my time. If it had spent more time on its subject than being a manifesto penned by its author, I would think more of it than I do

A few people have given me shit on this board for liking Fate. But I don't really care what they think. Fate provided me something I found valuable in my RPG hobby. A departure from the usual methodology I was used to. A change in approach I was very much looking for.

Do I think it is the end-all and be-all of RPGs? No. But it did challenge my perceptions? Yes. Which is what I needed at the time.

Will I ever run it? Well, that's difficult to say. I'm still trying after all of these years to really grasp some of its concepts enough to see myself actually using it.

I think Fate suffers badly from authors who think they are clever. To the point, it negatively impacts the game's actual playability.

The only version of Fate I truly feel completely comfortable with is ICONS. And even that has its challenges.