Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129076Again, no faith required, a Paladin gets his powers from his god, he knows it exists, he needs no faith and can't be an agnostic, plus I think doing the god's bidding counts as worshipping.

But does he know the god exists? Because getting powers from belief is not in itself proof that a god exists, it's proof that some people with faith in that sort of thing have powers. You can definitely play it that the gods are unknown and unknowable, but belief has power. And whether that power is based on believing some objective truth is something that can be demonstrated at least via circumstantial evidence -- for instance, if you believe your religion is right and contradicts the other religions, then do the believers of other those religions also have divine powers? The answer's probably yes, unless you want a very limited world. In which case, the evidence leans toward the idea that its belief that gives people power. And, incidentally, you end up with a situation not that far off from our real world, where all kinds of religions believe all kinds of crazy and contradictory things, it's just they all have super powers. In that world, religions will either have to accept polytheism, or rationalize it away within their own framework. For instance, something similar to how the Catholic Church tried to explain away pagan myths and legends -- the wizards and druids and so on were either saints, or drew from the power of the Devil.

Quote from: Pat;1129215But does he know the god exists? Because getting powers from belief is not in itself proof that a god exists, it's proof that some people with faith in that sort of thing have powers. You can definitely play it that the gods are unknown and unknowable, but belief has power. And whether that power is based on believing some objective truth is something that can be demonstrated at least via circumstantial evidence -- for instance, if you believe your religion is right and contradicts the other religions, then do the believers of other those religions also have divine powers? The answer's probably yes, unless you want a very limited world. In which case, the evidence leans toward the idea that its belief that gives people power. And, incidentally, you end up with a situation not that far off from our real world, where all kinds of religions believe all kinds of crazy and contradictory things, it's just they all have super powers. In that world, religions will either have to accept polytheism, or rationalize it away within their own framework. For instance, something similar to how the Catholic Church tried to explain away pagan myths and legends -- the wizards and druids and so on were either saints, or drew from the power of the Devil.

Since his god answers his prayers? Yes I would say the cleric/paladin does know his god exists.

Belief = Faith, not required in a world where deities and demons are real and interact with the mortals.

Yes, it's exactly like what the catholic church did, and then it's exactly like current year Seattle where everybody gets to be a paladin and have none of the restrictions.

This is why you need to build your world top to bottom, start with the pantheon and do not make anything that contradicts it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129217Since his god answers his prayers? Yes I would say the cleric/paladin does know his god exists.

There's another theory that fits the evidence, therefore your conclusion is a matter of faith, not of knowledge.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1129214I am firmly in the camp of atheist wizards and religious paladins. The idea that someone who understands the inner workings of the multiverse can look at so-called gods and think "these are just very powerful wizards" makes perfect sense to me. There's also nothing in D&D or similar fantasy games dictating that gods have to take an active role in the world. That might be the case in specific settings but not an essential component of a fantasy world.

The fact that powerful beings exist and call themselves "gods" doesn't mean "therefore they are (truly) gods". For all I know those are just demons trying tempt me away from "the one true god(dess)" who has yet to reveal him/herself. Can these beings obliterate me or ruin my life? So can a wizard. Damn these demon-mages sure are petty.

Now, an atheist paladin, on the other hand, is just absurd. Even if you want to reduce "paladins" to some generic "champion" status (and I think you could) I think it makes more sense to just make a separate "champion" (or perhaps mystical warrior) class rather than generalize paladins just to fit a square peg in a round hole. Paladins embody a very specific archetype and role, and have very specific abilities that fit that archetype and role (lay on hands, smite evil), but might not necessarily fit a more generic champion or mystical warrior concept.

Granted, you could also make a universal "champion" class and make "paladins" a specific tradition within that general class. But if that's the case then you should stop calling the baseline class "paladin", cuz that's just simply not what a paladin is. A paladin is a specific type of champion that's supposed to be pious and channel the power of their gods, and should get at least a few specialized (non-generic) abilities to fit that role. But letting "paladins" be atheistic just to allow them to fit some generic "champion" role is just messing with the concept of what a paladin is supposed to be.

Now that does make sense and has internal consistency. Meaning it wouldn't break immersion. Yes Atheist Wizards and Religious Clerics/Paladins is something I could buy into.

Which, contrary to what some seem to think, it's my whole argument against Atheist Paladins, it just doesn't fit with the class as it's built.

Quote from: Pat;1129218There's another theory that fits the evidence, therefore your conclusion is a matter of faith, not of knowledge.

With your brain from the 21st century, not the brain of someone stuck in a middle ages world. Metagaming again.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129220With your brain from the 21st century, not the brain of someone stuck in a middle ages world. Metagaming again.

What middle ages world? With maybe one exception (and it's not a D&D-umbral world), every major fantasy setting is 99.44% modern, with a thin veneer of the medieval or ancient slapped on top. RPGs are more about accessibility and relatability, than Otto of the Silver Hand or The Mermaid's Children.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129195If you know such beings exist you don't need to believe jack shit. Plus Faith (religious faith) is the belief lacking evidence or even in the face of evidence against.

Just because you may know that a particularly powerful being exists -that does not mean that you believe them to be a god/gods.

Quote from: SHARK;1129201...
Well, the fact that there are so many people that play in Forgotten Realms that somehow have the impression that the gods aren't god at all, but just assholes that are super powerful and dole out power to who worships them and so on is just ridiculous....

It's only possible because the of way D&D designers have set up the settings pantheon to be utterly ridiculous itself.

Scientology is a more rigorous and foundational system upon which to base one's beliefs that the pantheon of Faerun.

Religious pantheons in D&D are a prime examples of fictional "religions" created by irreligious people based upon how they think religious people believe/act.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129178Unfortunately in DnD you have such entities crossing your path.

In the old days they used to have Gods statted up in their own Monster Manual.

Quote from: Shasarak;1129223In the old days they used to have Gods statted up in their own Monster Manual.

I had that book, the super illegal version

Quote from: Jaeger;1129222Religious pantheons in D&D are a prime examples of fictional "religions" created by irreligious people based upon how they think religious people believe/act.

Even stranger, they're fictional religions that supposed to be a specific type of religion (polytheism), but are based on what irreligious people think know about an entirely different religious paradigm (monotheism).

People sometimes call it henotheism, but it's not. It's polytheism as imagined by people who have a poor grasp of monotheism.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129107Atheism is the lack of faith in god/gods, not the assertion that they do not exist. If you know they do exist you can't be neither agnostic nor atheistic in regards to them. Look above your response, What Altheus is saying.

OED

atheist
NOUN
A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Quote from: Shasarak;1129223In the old days they used to have Gods statted up in their own Monster Manual.

What loot does God drop? Probably fishes and loaves.

Quote from: Gagarth;1129227OED

atheist
NOUN
A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

faith

noun
noun: faith

    1.  complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
    "this restores one's faith in politicians"
    h
    Similar:
    trust

belief
confidence
conviction
credence
reliance
dependence
optimism
hopefulness
hope
expectation
h
Antonym:
mistrust
    2.  strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Please take note that you want to prove me wrong by just changing faith for one of it's synonyms.

Quote from: Orphan81;1129198It's clear to me you're a believer, and that very much effects your own perception right now. You're trying to impose your own beliefs and views on the setting. If I came to England Circa 900 with a Thompson Sub machine gun, a tablet, and antibiotics, you bet your ass the people there would assume I was a great sorcerer and these were my magic spells. The most educated, however, would be able to look at, and understand it was a type of Technology.

I think that's completely ridiculous. Personally, I think everyone would understand immediately that they are technology. But even besides that, the idea that magic and technology are distinct things is a projection of your worldview. How are antibiotics any different than any substance ground up by an alchemist or some old lady? If you believe that such and such root is an effective cure, then why should bread mold being an effective cure make it magic? If you give a medieval person antibiotics and explain to them what they are and that they're not really magic, they aren't going to denounce all of their folk remedies and religion, put on a fedora and start pwning Christians on reddit. They're going to ask you how to make it, or for you to give them more of it.

Quote from: Jaeger;1129222It's only possible because the of way D&D designers have set up the settings pantheon to be utterly ridiculous itself.

Scientology is a more rigorous and foundational system upon which to base one's beliefs that the pantheon of Faerun.

Well of course Scientology is more rigorous and foundational, it is based on Science!

QuoteReligious pantheons in D&D are a prime examples of fictional "religions" created by irreligious people based upon how they think religious people believe/act.

I am not sure that is right.  I get the impression that Ed Greenwood knew what he was writing up and then the people who came in after especially us dear readers dont appreciate the context of living in such a world.