Quote from: Orphan81;1129192Arthur C Clarke pokes holes in that statement.."Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Dawkins and skeptics are more likely to see someone coming down and doing miracles while claiming to be Jesus as using some heretofore unseen or known Science. Something more advanced than what human beings are capable of. Faith, is extremely important to the metaphysics of Dungeons and Dragons worlds. Just because your deity can make themselves manifest does not mean you no longer need faith in them. Faith is what feeds them. You have faith in their ability to protect you, and provide power to you.

I'm not talking about Atheist Paladins anymore by the way. That's just a stupid concept as is. But one can very much be an atheist in the Dungeons and Dragons fantasy world, if anything being a Wizard is probably one of the best ways to do it. As a Wizard who has more knowledge, more ideas on how the cosmos works.. it's more likely you're able to see how the "Deities" of the universe work, and their direct, necessary relationship with Humans and come to the conclusion they're not actually Gods. Given without worship and without faith they shrivel up and die.

Having one of these beings cross your path doesn't mean you necessarily suddenly begin to believe they are Gods. It just means you encountered a powerful being. And given Mortals are capable of ascending to Godhood through various means, it stands to reason you don't need to actually believe they're the true architects of creation and the mysterious powers behind everything.

Would Dawkins still doubt the existence of Jesus?

Would the people from medieval Europe think that magic = Tech they do not understand?

You're inserting what YOU know into the world, your character wouldn't have a way to know that or to think that, because of how it grew up.

Atheism is the lack of belief in gods, but in DnD and PF you can see, interact with them, plus you have Clerics and Paladins that get their powers from them... How can you doubt what you see with your own eyes?

Stop thinking like a 21st century person and try and think like someone from that world.

GB are you working on a new RPG, "Jesuit: The Semantic Arguing"?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129196Would Dawkins still doubt the existence of Jesus?

Would the people from medieval Europe think that magic = Tech they do not understand?

You're inserting what YOU know into the world, your character wouldn't have a way to know that or to think that, because of how it grew up.

Atheism is the lack of belief in gods, but in DnD and PF you can see, interact with them, plus you have Clerics and Paladins that get their powers from them... How can you doubt what you see with your own eyes?

Stop thinking like a 21st century person and try and think like someone from that world.

It's clear to me you're a believer, and that very much effects your own perception right now. You're trying to impose your own beliefs and views on the setting. If I came to England Circa 900 with a Thompson Sub machine gun, a tablet, and antibiotics, you bet your ass the people there would assume I was a great sorcerer and these were my magic spells. The most educated, however, would be able to look at, and understand it was a type of Technology.

In a setting where Magic is real, and anyone with sufficient knowledge and capability can harness and use that Magic, the existence of powerful beings does not necessarily mean I view them as Divine in the sense of a Christian in the real world, or even a peasant follower of that faith in the fantasy world. If I'm a wizard, I can look at Warlocks and Clerics, look at their magic, and see how I'm able to duplicate the majority of it myself. From the Warlocks various pacts I can also summarize that powerful beings are able to grant some of their own power to others in exchange for service. I also know on a long enough timeline, as a Wizard, I too could one day ascend to these potential heights and be considered a "God" among mortals.

With that knowledge, I can very much be an atheist. I can know there is no true creator behind the scenes of the Universe, that it simply exists. The fact their are powerful beings that can grant magic to others doesn't invalidate that viewpoint. If anything, one can take the very same look that modern day skeptics have... Religion is an effective means to control people.

There have been atheists all throughout History, the inclusion of magic and powerful beings claiming to be Gods does not mean I have to believe they are so..

And Faith is still very much a thing in those worlds. Clerics and Paladins cannot get their abilities without Faith that these powerful beings are exactly who they say they are.

Hell, if a being came down in a ray of light, declared himself to be Jesus Christ, and turned my water bottle into a wine bottle while it was still in my hand, I might not believe it was the son of God.  Especially if it was red wine. I'd have to say, "Dude, Jesus would know I can't stand this stuff."

It is true that this wouldn't be a very medieval European mindset, but we aren't talking about medieval Europe.  We are talking about a world where wizardry is just a job with not much more skill needed than being a medic and where gods can get murdered (sometimes BY mortals ) or mortals raised up to be new gods.  There is not a lot of jumping needed to start wondering if gods aren't just big wizards that bought into their own hype.

I do agree that divinely powered athiests are a stretch and would be rare as Asmodeus' tears, but if that is the sort of person that a god decides "this one will do good works" and doesn't seem to mind that "in my name" isn't on the end of that sentence, then who am I to argue?

I'll just chalk it up to ineffability and be glad that somebody with those skills is on the side of the angels, regardless of whether they believe in them.

Greetings!

Well, the fact that there are so many people that play in Forgotten Realms that somehow have the impression that the gods aren't god at all, but just assholes that are super powerful and dole out power to who worships them and so on is just ridiculous. In my campaigns, the gods are enormous, vast spiritual beings that are simply beyond mortal comprehension. Individual worshippers may experience dreams, visions, prophecies, mystical experiences--and sometimes communicate with powerful spiritual beings like Devas or Demons, but that is all. People do not see, or speak directly with gods. Even speaking to a powerful divine servant of a god--like a powerful Deva--is utterly profound, and an awesome, life-changing experience. Those that may arrogantly doubt the gods, or blaspheme against them, in particular circumstances, can just be simply annihilated in seconds by the hand of judgment.

Beyond such unusual experiences, divine magic, and divine minions--and in particular, holy clerics, are sufficient evidence of divine power and holiness. People do have visions, people do make prophecies of the future, people are miraculously healed, and especially wicked cities are thrown down in fire and brimstone in an hour. Plagues, strife, and calamity do strike a family and it's fortunes over a lifetime, bringing the family of an evil and blasphemous patriarch to ruin, no matter what efforts they may go through to otherwise avoid such calamities. Others may be majestically blessed in wealth, power, and blessing, though they are a humble shepherd. The divine realms are certainly a reality, and something that mortal people provoke or challenge at their own peril.

So, the gods are used as a generally mystical, mysterious, force within the world in my campaign, beyond mortal comprehension, often distant and inscrutable, but possessing overwhelming and unimaginable powers. Wizards and whatever spells that are in the books are like children playing with playdoh in comparison.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I did run a Rolemaster game where in the past, a great human empire had discovered that the gods required faith and worship and undertook a program of deliberate deicide in order to focus power into a smaller number of gods and weaponise them using mystical goads to direct and control the gods themselves.  It all came to an end when the mother goddess stopped all new births for thirty years which was enough to collapse the empire.

I also ran one where the gods lived in a heaven in geosynchonous orbit and were tall enough to be seen moving about at night.  Those gods were more like Jack Kirby's Celestials, present but inscrutible though the priests of their church received powers.  But that world was the cooling corpses of planetary class elementals and humans were essentially decay bacteria while elves and orks were like antibodies.  Hell was a fungus with a continental patch on the surface and a mass of hyphae / tunnels beneath the surface.  The only time the players really paid much attention to it all was the time when the gods had a schism and one of their corpses landed on the city they were staying in.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1129197GB are you working on a new RPG, "Jesuit: The Semantic Arguing"?

LOL, no. Plus I'm an atheist

Quote from: Orphan81;1129198It's clear to me you're a believer, and that very much effects your own perception right now. You're trying to impose your own beliefs and views on the setting. If I came to England Circa 900 with a Thompson Sub machine gun, a tablet, and antibiotics, you bet your ass the people there would assume I was a great sorcerer and these were my magic spells. The most educated, however, would be able to look at, and understand it was a type of Technology.

In a setting where Magic is real, and anyone with sufficient knowledge and capability can harness and use that Magic, the existence of powerful beings does not necessarily mean I view them as Divine in the sense of a Christian in the real world, or even a peasant follower of that faith in the fantasy world. If I'm a wizard, I can look at Warlocks and Clerics, look at their magic, and see how I'm able to duplicate the majority of it myself. From the Warlocks various pacts I can also summarize that powerful beings are able to grant some of their own power to others in exchange for service. I also know on a long enough timeline, as a Wizard, I too could one day ascend to these potential heights and be considered a "God" among mortals.

With that knowledge, I can very much be an atheist. I can know there is no true creator behind the scenes of the Universe, that it simply exists. The fact their are powerful beings that can grant magic to others doesn't invalidate that viewpoint. If anything, one can take the very same look that modern day skeptics have... Religion is an effective means to control people.

There have been atheists all throughout History, the inclusion of magic and powerful beings claiming to be Gods does not mean I have to believe they are so..

And Faith is still very much a thing in those worlds. Clerics and Paladins cannot get their abilities without Faith that these powerful beings are exactly who they say they are.

You fail at mind reading too. I'm an atheist, now you're just arguing on bad faith, I'm talking about a game world, you keep on trying to inject stuff YOU know into it, that's called metagaming.

Quote from: Manic Modron;1129199Hell, if a being came down in a ray of light, declared himself to be Jesus Christ, and turned my water bottle into a wine bottle while it was still in my hand, I might not believe it was the son of God.  Especially if it was red wine. I'd have to say, "Dude, Jesus would know I can't stand this stuff."

It is true that this wouldn't be a very medieval European mindset, but we aren't talking about medieval Europe.  We are talking about a world where wizardry is just a job with not much more skill needed than being a medic and where gods can get murdered (sometimes BY mortals ) or mortals raised up to be new gods.  There is not a lot of jumping needed to start wondering if gods aren't just big wizards that bought into their own hype.

I do agree that divinely powered athiests are a stretch and would be rare as Asmodeus' tears, but if that is the sort of person that a god decides "this one will do good works" and doesn't seem to mind that "in my name" isn't on the end of that sentence, then who am I to argue?

I'll just chalk it up to ineffability and be glad that somebody with those skills is on the side of the angels, regardless of whether they believe in them.

Like the Greeks/Romans believed mortals could become Gods?
Like Christians believed and believe you can become a saint and then perform miracles?

Yes atheists/agnostics powered by a divinity are a stretch so big you end in the other side of the galaxy.

Quote from: SHARK;1129201Greetings!

Well, the fact that there are so many people that play in Forgotten Realms that somehow have the impression that the gods aren't god at all, but just assholes that are super powerful and dole out power to who worships them and so on is just ridiculous. In my campaigns, the gods are enormous, vast spiritual beings that are simply beyond mortal comprehension. Individual worshippers may experience dreams, visions, prophecies, mystical experiences--and sometimes communicate with powerful spiritual beings like Devas or Demons, but that is all. People do not see, or speak directly with gods. Even speaking to a powerful divine servant of a god--like a powerful Deva--is utterly profound, and an awesome, life-changing experience. Those that may arrogantly doubt the gods, or blaspheme against them, in particular circumstances, can just be simply annihilated in seconds by the hand of judgment.

Beyond such unusual experiences, divine magic, and divine minions--and in particular, holy clerics, are sufficient evidence of divine power and holiness. People do have visions, people do make prophecies of the future, people are miraculously healed, and especially wicked cities are thrown down in fire and brimstone in an hour. Plagues, strife, and calamity do strike a family and it's fortunes over a lifetime, bringing the family of an evil and blasphemous patriarch to ruin, no matter what efforts they may go through to otherwise avoid such calamities. Others may be majestically blessed in wealth, power, and blessing, though they are a humble shepherd. The divine realms are certainly a reality, and something that mortal people provoke or challenge at their own peril.

So, the gods are used as a generally mystical, mysterious, force within the world in my campaign, beyond mortal comprehension, often distant and inscrutable, but possessing overwhelming and unimaginable powers. Wizards and whatever spells that are in the books are like children playing with playdoh in comparison.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

And this is why you limit the amount of power your characters can get, failure to do so not only may break immersion it breaks the world.

Quote from: David Johansen;1129202I did run a Rolemaster game where in the past, a great human empire had discovered that the gods required faith and worship and undertook a program of deliberate deicide in order to focus power into a smaller number of gods and weaponise them using mystical goads to direct and control the gods themselves.  It all came to an end when the mother goddess stopped all new births for thirty years which was enough to collapse the empire.

I also ran one where the gods lived in a heaven in geosynchonous orbit and were tall enough to be seen moving about at night.  Those gods were more like Jack Kirby's Celestials, present but inscrutible though the priests of their church received powers.  But that world was the cooling corpses of planetary class elementals and humans were essentially decay bacteria while elves and orks were like antibodies.  Hell was a fungus with a continental patch on the surface and a mass of hyphae / tunnels beneath the surface.  The only time the players really paid much attention to it all was the time when the gods had a schism and one of their corpses landed on the city they were staying in.

Now those are games I would love to hear more about! The first is close to my preconception of the gods/demons requiring worship/sacrifice as sustenance or risk dying.

And the second just sounds so... Unique, in the best way possible.

Quote from: SHARK;1129055Hmmm...Atheism enforced in the game just seems contrarian, delusional, and stupid. Everyone in the world is theistic. There is no scholarly enclave holding out for the virtues of atheism. It's just stupid. Any player of in my group insisting on such a philosophy would be very alone, as most everyone around such a character would deem them hopelessly stupid at best--and blasphemous and cursed at worst, in which case they would typically be exiled, or hunted down and executed for their blasphemy. Whatever their fate, it would be terrible, lonely, and grim. There would be zero philosophical or ideological support for such a character, and socially they would be an ostracized pariah.

Since I first got my hands on D&DG, and then even more so after the Avatar Trilogy, I've been a firm proponent of maltheism in fantasy settings.

Kill the gods and take their stuff!

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129208And this is why you limit the amount of power your characters can get, failure to do so not only may break immersion it breaks the world.

Greetings!

That's right, my friend! I am always watchful and cautious in whatever powers that player characters may gain. Especially so with things relating to the divine, divine powers, and so on. Thus, while my players often joke that my answers are usually either "No, you can't do that; No, your efforts to achieve X fail, for a variety of reasons. No, you can't do that. The knowledge or processes are not known, do not exist, or have not been discovered by anyone." Or, there is some way that the character gets fucked; the experiment blows up, disaster strikes them in some other manner, and on and on. They laugh about it, but their powers, regardless of what class they are, are limited, and remain limited. Except when they are assaulting some evil temple, they regard clerics and temples with proper reverence and respect. Evil gods and demons are temporal, and an earthly threat. A true God is incomprehensible and can snuff you out like an ant. Players typically take a very respectful and cautious approach when dealing with genuine religions and divine beings in the game world. In my campaigns, players cannot travel to divine realms, nor do they ever directly interact with the gods; and player characters certainly cannot "become gods". Evil characters like to believe they can "become gods" though such is a delusion, and a metaphysical fraud. At best, they can become transformed to a very powerful evil demonic-like being. No matter how powerful such evil characters may become, or seem to be, they too can be utterly annihilated by righteous powers and gods. A somewhat earthly example, characters can become vampires--immensely powerful, near-immortal, and yet, they too can be brought to judgment. Mummies, liches, whatever. Even demons can be scourged by holy fire, wounded with righteous weapons, and destroyed, returning their spiritual essence to the realms of Hell, to suffer further humiliation and scorn. It's different, I suppose, for sure. The mystical and divine are encountered everywhere, and yet, there are restrictions and barriers that firmly separate the divine realm from the mortal realm.

Players "becoming gods". *laughing* No, my players would never seek to even think they can attempt such. The thought makes them think of blasphemous rebellion and eternal judgment and damnation. They know they should not meddle with that which is beyond their comprehension. They are mortals, and remain content with their existence, and whatever way they must live their lives on the mortal world. Resisting evil powers, and seeking to live lives that are more or less righteous and in humble obedience to the ways of righteous and noble faith.

I also use limited "plane hopping" mostly restricted toFaerie realms, or elemental realms, as I tend to think it is somehow more realistic, more believable, to keep powers and such instances restricted from the players. The divine is always mysterious and ultimately unknowable, or as Paul says, "We see as through a glass darkly." Our vision, our comprehension is very limited, even when exposed to some kind of divine encounter or experience. Limited, mortal, bewildering. It keeps the players having a real sense of being grounded in a realistic world, and yet fantastic.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Pat;1129211Since I first got my hands on D&DG, and then even more so after the Avatar Trilogy, I've been a firm proponent of maltheism in fantasy settings.

Kill the gods and take their stuff!

Greetings!

*Laughing* Oh yes. When you get higher level, who doesn't want to challenge Orcus, or Demogorgon? I know what kind of awesome goodies they get in their hoard, according to the Treasure Tables!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I am firmly in the camp of atheist wizards and religious paladins. The idea that someone who understands the inner workings of the multiverse can look at so-called gods and think "these are just very powerful wizards" makes perfect sense to me. There's also nothing in D&D or similar fantasy games dictating that gods have to take an active role in the world. That might be the case in specific settings but not an essential component of a fantasy world.

The fact that powerful beings exist and call themselves "gods" doesn't mean "therefore they are (truly) gods". For all I know those are just demons trying tempt me away from "the one true god(dess)" who has yet to reveal him/herself. Can these beings obliterate me or ruin my life? So can a wizard. Damn these demon-mages sure are petty.

Now, an atheist paladin, on the other hand, is just absurd. Even if you want to reduce "paladins" to some generic "champion" status (and I think you could) I think it makes more sense to just make a separate "champion" (or perhaps mystical warrior) class rather than generalize paladins just to fit a square peg in a round hole. Paladins embody a very specific archetype and role, and have very specific abilities that fit that archetype and role (lay on hands, smite evil), but might not necessarily fit a more generic champion or mystical warrior concept.

Granted, you could also make a universal "champion" class and make "paladins" a specific tradition within that general class. But if that's the case then you should stop calling the baseline class "paladin", cuz that's just simply not what a paladin is. A paladin is a specific type of champion that's supposed to be pious and channel the power of their gods, and should get at least a few specialized (non-generic) abilities to fit that role. But letting "paladins" be atheistic just to allow them to fit some generic "champion" role is just messing with the concept of what a paladin is supposed to be.