Quote from: SHARK;1127102Greetings!

Hello, Mjollnir! I'm not certain if it was Otzi the Iceman or not. It was a documentary about Neanderthals in the Alps

It sounds like it was probably about groups of neolithic modern humans, within the past 10,000 years or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic

Before that you have extensive glaciation in the Alps and not somewhere you'd expect to find cro magnons, who during the peak of the last Ice Age ca 25,000-12,000 years ago were confined to small refugia in southern Europe. They first entered Europe ca 40,000 years ago, when the Neanderthals started disappearing (funny coincidence)

Quote from: S'mon;1127154It sounds like it was probably about groups of neolithic modern humans, within the past 10,000 years or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic

Before that you have extensive glaciation in the Alps and not somewhere you'd expect to find cro magnons, who during the peak of the last Ice Age ca 25,000-12,000 years ago were confined to small refugia in southern Europe. They first entered Europe ca 40,000 years ago, when the Neanderthals started disappearing (funny coincidence)

I found this about Neanderthals, about recent analysis of their bones for throwing motion.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28663444/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/neanderthals-lacked-projectile-weapons/#.Xpn2-5NKgdU

Still, even if they lacked bows in history, they weren't necessarily technologically backwards. Many humans of that time period lacked bows as well, and the article cites evidence that the Neanderthals used bitumen to attach stone heads to hafts. Trying to keep this on-topic for Timothy Westwind -- he was specifically trying for avoiding tropes of more aggressive (orcs) or more in touch with nature (elves). I think there's reasonable doubt that Neanderthals were the stereotype of more brutish or beastly than mainline humans. They were more primitive mostly because they lived in a very primitive time - before either homo sapiens or Neanderthals had agriculture or other advancements.

Quote from: S'mon;1127154It sounds like it was probably about groups of neolithic modern humans, within the past 10,000 years or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic

Before that you have extensive glaciation in the Alps and not somewhere you'd expect to find cro magnons, who during the peak of the last Ice Age ca 25,000-12,000 years ago were confined to small refugia in southern Europe. They first entered Europe ca 40,000 years ago, when the Neanderthals started disappearing (funny coincidence)

Greetings!

That's a very cool article on the Neolithic Age, S'mon! I especially like all the different details on different regions, different tools, animals and building styles.

And yes, Humans have been killing each other forever!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim;1127159I found this about Neanderthals, about recent analysis of their bones for throwing motion.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28663444/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/neanderthals-lacked-projectile-weapons/#.Xpn2-5NKgdU

I found this part interesting:

Quote"Nobody in Africa uses spear-throwers, and they use spears mainly for warfare and hunting the really big game, such as elephants, rhinos and hippos," Shea explained.

I've seldom see game systems that give more damage to a thrown spear or javelin than to an arrow. Runequest 2 being one of the rare exceptions.

Quote from: Bren;1127167I found this part interesting:
I've seldom see game systems that give more damage to a thrown spear or javelin than to an arrow. Runequest 2 being one of the rare exceptions.

Game weapon stats tend to base off best-of-type, so they tend to stat more off English longbows and Mongol composite war bows than the typical bows most people have used throughout history. I guess Runequest is more classical-historical - a Roman pilum certainly did way more damage than a Roman bow!

Quote from: jhkim;1127159I found this about Neanderthals, about recent analysis of their bones for throwing motion.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28663444/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/neanderthals-lacked-projectile-weapons/#.Xpn2-5NKgdU

Still, even if they lacked bows in history, they weren't necessarily technologically backwards. Many humans of that time period lacked bows as well, and the article cites evidence that the Neanderthals used bitumen to attach stone heads to hafts. Trying to keep this on-topic for Timothy Westwind -- he was specifically trying for avoiding tropes of more aggressive (orcs) or more in touch with nature (elves). I think there's reasonable doubt that Neanderthals were the stereotype of more brutish or beastly than mainline humans. They were more primitive mostly because they lived in a very primitive time - before either homo sapiens or Neanderthals had agriculture or other advancements.

I don't believe they were more primitive. In fact I think they were more advanced than modern humans. They didn't need bows because they hunted big game which was plentiful. Their brains were as large or larger than human brains, Smithsonian says they were less advanced here:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/science-shows-why-youre-smarter-than-a-neanderthal-1885827/

I'm inclined to disagree with the Smithsonian though, because not enough actual data on Neanderthal brain function is available to support their conclusions conclusively. Neanderthal brains was as large or larger than modern humans. It very possible they had extra brain functions that were empathic or telepathic in nature, and simply didn't need what Smithsonian describes as "Higher Order Thinking". Just like they didn't need bows because there was plenty of large game, they didn't need to use their brain for "higher order thinking", and instead only needed it to cope with their immediate environment.  The Neanderthal didn't need language because they could communicate better emotionally, and directly. They didn't need writing for the same reason. Writing was a lower order function because the elders could collectively remember everything, and share what they knew, as needed with the younger tribe members.

I think modern humans came in from Africa and hunted through the Neanderthal ranges depleting the large herds of large game animals, and the Neanderthals were not equipped to deal with the suddenly changing hunting environment in much the same way as the Native Americans were wiped out when the Buffalo and other Western game herds were hunted for sport and fashion almost to extinction instead of for food and simple survival. Thier numbers, never very large, because the reproduced slowly, and when they lost hunting ranges, they either competed unsuccessfully directly with modern humans, or avoided them completely retreating to ever smaller and smaller areas, just like North American Native Americans. I think Neanderthal had much keener sense, and definitely a better sense of smell than modern humans. It was modern humans that invented agriculture, but they had to, becuase they hunted out all the game and wildlife, where ever they roamed. If modern humans weren't hunting, they were raiding other settlements for food. Right up until the time they invented agriculture and began building cities. Agriculture needs cities, and organized groups. Hunting doesn't.

I don't think the Neanderthal achieved such a high population density that they depleted the resources in the areas where they lived, and if they rarely did, they simply moved being nomadic.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1127203I think modern humans came in from Africa and hunted through the Neanderthal ranges depleting the large herds of large game animals, and the Neanderthals were not equipped to deal with the suddenly changing hunting environment in much the same way as the Native Americans were wiped out when the Buffalo and other Western game herds were hunted for sport and fashion almost to extinction instead of for food and simple survival. Thier numbers, never very large, because the reproduced slowly, and when they lost hunting ranges, they either competed unsuccessfully directly with modern humans, or avoided them completely retreating to ever smaller and smaller areas, just like North American Native Americans. I think Neanderthal had much keener sense, and definitely a better sense of smell than modern humans. It was modern humans that invented agriculture, but they had to, becuase they hunted out all the game and wildlife, where ever they roamed. If modern humans weren't hunting, they were raiding other settlements for food. Right up until the time they invented agriculture and began building cities. Agriculture needs cities, and organized groups. Hunting doesn't.

This is just made up stuff for the purposes of making fantasy races, right?

Quote from: Shasarak;1127207This is just made up stuff for the purposes of making fantasy races, right?

I hope so! Modern humans arrive in Europe ca 40,000 BC, Neanderthals died out by around 30,000-25,000 BC, then you get the last Glacial Maximum (with humans confined to small refugia on the southern fringe of Europe) from ca 23,000 BC, then AIR first permanent settlements in Anatolia ca 12,000-10,000 BC, first proper agriculture there ca 10,000 BC, followed by the Yellow River Basin shortly afterwards.

In Europe the first post-Ice Age humans were the western hunter gatherers expanding from the southern refugia, they were likely descended from the same guys who wiped out the Neanderthals. But they were REPLACED after a few thousand years by agriculturalists expanding from Anatolia and the Levant, the early European farmers. Then they in turn were largely replaced by pastoralists expanding from the Ukrainean steppe, who as far as we know were the Indo-European speakers (who also went south into Iran then India as the Aryans) who are the ancestors of most modern Europeans.

The Indo-Europeans/Aryans are actually more closely related to the Western Hunter Gatherers than either group were to the Early European Farmers, but they are not direct descendents - they were a mix of Ancient North Eurasian (whose genes also show up in the Americas, Na-Dene speakers especially I think) and eastern European hunter gatherers who were related to the western hunter gatherers replaced by the Near-Eastern farmers.

Quote from: S'mon;1127221I hope so! Modern humans arrive in Europe ca 40,000 BC, Neanderthals died out by around 30,000-25,000 BC, then you get the last Glacial Maximum (with humans confined to small refugia on the southern fringe of Europe) from ca 23,000 BC, then AIR first permanent settlements in Anatolia ca 12,000-10,000 BC, first proper agriculture there ca 10,000 BC, followed by the Yellow River Basin shortly afterwards.

In Europe the first post-Ice Age humans were the western hunter gatherers expanding from the southern refugia, they were likely descended from the same guys who wiped out the Neanderthals. But they were REPLACED after a few thousand years by agriculturalists expanding from Anatolia and the Levant, the early European farmers. Then they in turn were largely replaced by pastoralists expanding from the Ukrainean steppe, who as far as we know were the Indo-European speakers (who also went south into Iran then India as the Aryans) who are the ancestors of most modern Europeans.

The Indo-Europeans/Aryans are actually more closely related to the Western Hunter Gatherers than either group were to the Early European Farmers, but they are not direct descendents - they were a mix of Ancient North Eurasian (whose genes also show up in the Americas, Na-Dene speakers especially I think) and eastern European hunter gatherers who were related to the western hunter gatherers replaced by the Near-Eastern farmers.

This last group of modern humans that you mention is the one that held the most interest for me when I began this Paleolithic research about twenty-five years ago. Turns out they have another name based on the research of Dr. Marija Gimbutas, of UCLA. They were called the Gumelnita/Karanov culture... the Gumelnita were from India, the Karanov from the far east. They were the first horseback riders who came from the east with their goats and sheep and plundered the tribal settlements of the Starcevo peoples and the Capsian peoples. Before the arrival of the Karanov, the modern Europeans that had replaced the Neanderthals lived in open communities and were not organized for war. Families and clans typically settled in large beautiful houses located on grain rich hillsides, that overlooked broad rich lush river valleys full of game. They gathered honey, grew a wide variety of wheat, spelt, and legumes, hunted, and lived for several millennia from about 8500 BC to about 6500 BC in about the ideal environment, a Shangri-la if you will. They built this vast network of Stone Henges and sacred gathering places honoring nature, science, and Astronomy. Then the Karanov came on their Horses, and suddenly hilltop fortifications sprung up all over Europe and their was a massive increase in evidence of fighting, with human remains in graves showing a marked increase of battle damage, broken bones cause by spears, stone hammers, or axes, cut marks on bones, etc.

The Starcevo were settled in the area of Greece and were mostly Non Indo-European Celtic type farmers who lived along rivers, and subsisted more on farming and gathering than on hunting. Along the Donau in Austria it was the Koros peoples, very similar to the Starcevo. They were replaced by the Karanov as well.

The Capsian peoples lived along the North Shore of Africa and during this period, the environment of the Maghreb was open savanna, much like modern East Africa, with Mediterranean forests at higher altitudes. The Capsian diet included a wide variety of animals, ranging from aurochs and hartebeest to hares and snails; there is little evidence concerning plants eaten so they were bow using hunter/gatherers. During the succeeding Neolithic period of Capsian Tradition, about the time the same time the Karanov invaded from the east into Greece, there is evidence from one site, for domesticated, probably imported, ovicaprids (sheep & goats for us normal humans..) Also at this time 6600 BC to 4500 BC or so the Indo-European Gumelnita invaded Greece from Anatolia and mixed with the Karanov/Starcevo peoples

Further west in England was the Windmill Hill peoples.  The Windmill Hill culture was a name given to a people inhabiting southern Britain, in particular in the Salisbury Plain area close to Stonehenge, c. 3000 BC. They were an agrarian Neolithic people; their name comes from Windmill Hill, a causewayed enclosure. Together with another Neolithic tribe from East Anglia, a tribe whose worship involved stone circles, it is thought that they were responsible for the earliest work on the Stonehenge site. The material record left by these people includes large circular hill-top enclosures, causewayed enclosures, long barrows, leaf-shaped arrowheads, and polished stone axes. They raised cattle, sheep, pigs, and dogs, and grew wheat and mined flints. So they were fighters, and built fortified hilltop settlements. Not much else is known about the very early peoples of the UK  Archaeologist and prehistorian Caroline Malone noted that during the Late Mesolithic, the British Isles were something of a "technological backwater" in European terms, still living as a hunter-gatherer society whilst most of southern Europe had already taken up agriculture and sedentary living. Prior to about 7000 BC the sea levels were lower and Britain was connected to mainland Europe in the Doggerland hills area, which is now the Doggerland banks, very shallow waters east of England The windmill people were replaced by the Beaker Culture around 2500 BC or so when they invaded Briton which had become isolated with the rise in sea level. The Celts invaded Briton from Europe from about 1400-800 BC, and they were very warlike, and liked taking the heads of their enemies as battle trophies.

The languages in Europe coalesced and the predominate language around 4500 BC was Indo-European dialect probably brought by the Gumelnita. The 5th millennium has become a startpoint for calendars and chronologies, though only one has any basis in reality. The year 4750 BC is the retrospective startpoint for the Assyrian calendar, marking the traditional date for the foundation of Assur, some 2,000 years before it actually happened.(Not, the Assyrians Calender does mark the true foundation of Assur and the Assyrian Kingdom).

Map of Paleolithic cultures in Europe 6600 BC or so...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo_culture#/media/File:Neol%C3%ADtico_en_Europa.png

Map of Neolithic cultures including the Karanov after the Karanov invasion around 5000 BC
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Karanovo_culture#/media/File:European-middle-neolithic-en.svg


UK Windmill Hill Culture 5000 BC - 3500 BC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windmill_Hill_culture

Capsian Culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsian_culture

Sites and settlement pattern 9000-3500 BC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe#/media/File:Chronology_of_arrival_times_of_the_Neolithic_transition_in_Europe.jpg

Quote from: GameDaddy;1127226Before the arrival of the Karanov, the modern Europeans that had replaced the Neanderthals lived in open communities and were not organized for war. Families and clans typically settled in large beautiful houses located on grain rich hillsides

As I said, those Early European Farmers were not the people who replaced the Neanderthals in Europe.

Neanderthals > Western Hunter Gatherers (who contract to refugia at LGM then expand after Ice Age) > Early European Farmers (from Anatolia) > Indo-Europeans

Thanks everyone, I've been giving this more thought.

Perhaps the difference between the other species could be their inability to former larger groups like us? A lower Dunbar number in effect?

This would lead to smaller groups travelling around, inability to form stable stationary settlements, a higher distrust of strangers.

In order to ensure adequate gene mixing they might develop cultures that have formalised interaction between groups, special events where they can meet, trade, 'marry' etc.

Interacting with human characters would mean they take longer to feel friendship or as someone mentioned earlier, perhaps they are more utilitarian in how they interact with others.